Immigration - is Trump different from Obama?

Events occurring and how they relate/affect Anabaptist faith and culture.
Valerie
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Re: Immigration - is Trump different from Obama?

Postby Valerie » Mon Jan 30, 2017 4:53 pm

Well, I suspect the next four years you will keep us pretty informed about all the reasons you do not agree with him-
But now you realize why you and I were not welcome in the thread about non-resistant people 'not' engaging in polictical discussions- and how to avoid them.

You could be right about your assessment- I think he also realizes why he was voted in- and he has a lot of learning to do, after all he's been POTUS for 10 days, and is new to politics. It may be trial and error but it did send his approval rating up.
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Bootstrap
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Re: Immigration - is Trump different from Obama?

Postby Bootstrap » Mon Jan 30, 2017 5:03 pm

Valerie wrote:But now you realize why you and I were not welcome in the thread about non-resistant people 'not' engaging in political discussions- and how to avoid them.


As far as I can tell, members of plain and non-resistant churches do engage in political discussions - as you can also see here and on my Facebook feed, where I see plain Mennos voicing political opinions with some frequency.

I do think it's important to remember that our Kingdom response is really what we should focus on. Which is why I split this off from Ernie's thread, to avoid distracting from it.

Valerie wrote:You could be right about your assessment- I think he also realizes why he was voted in- and he has a lot of learning to do, after all he's been POTUS for 10 days, and is new to politics. It may be trial and error but it did send his approval rating up.


Every new president has a lot of learning to do. Let's pray that he learns.

It's a little too early to tell how this weekend affected his approval rating - we need a set of polls that ask people now, after his executive order. So far, his approval rating started at 45% and has dropped to 41.8%. But it's WAY too early to know what his approval ratings will look like a month, three months, or a year from now.
Last edited by Bootstrap on Mon Jan 30, 2017 5:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Robert
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Re: Immigration - is Trump different from Obama?

Postby Robert » Mon Jan 30, 2017 5:03 pm

I watched the daily press conference today to get a good sense on all this.

1. Trump said this all during his campaign. He did what he said he was going to do.
2. He gets a daily briefing. Spicer was asked directly and he answered directly.
3. Once his people get in and in place and can better evaluate, they plan to readdress this issue.

On a personal note, I am not nor have been a Trump supporter. I view him through the same lens I viewed Obama and Bush. His executive orders are more administration then legislation. This I like.

Lastly, while the attackers have not come from these areas, today the US government sees ISIS and Al Queda as the enemy. These countries strongholds for who Trump admin (His secretaries) sees as the enemy. This is why these countries were identified, again by the Obama administration.
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Bootstrap
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Re: Immigration - is Trump different from Obama?

Postby Bootstrap » Mon Jan 30, 2017 5:49 pm

Robert wrote:1. Trump said this all during his campaign. He did what he said he was going to do.
2. He gets a daily briefing. Spicer was asked directly and he answered directly.
3. Once his people get in and in place and can better evaluate, they plan to readdress this issue.


His campaign website calls this a ban on Muslim immigration - precisely what Trump is now saying it is not.

The daily briefing I was talking about is the daily intelligence briefing.

WALLACE: I just want to ask you about your skepticism about the intelligence community. You are getting the presidential daily brief --

TRUMP: Yes.

WALLACE: -- only once a week.

TRUMP: Well, I--I get it when I need it.

WALLACE: But is it -- is there some skepticism –

(CROSSTALK)

TRUMP: You know, I get -- first of all, these are very good people that are giving me the briefings. And I say, "If something should change from this point, immediately call me. I'm available on one-minute's notice." I don't have to be told -- you know, I'm, like, a smart person. I don't have to be told the same thing in the same words every single day for the next eight years. Could be eight years -- but eight years. I don't need that. But I do say, "If something should change, let us know."


That caused a lot of concern in the intelligence and foreign policy community. They also said that these briefings are not repetitive, a lot happens in the world, and pointed out that Trump would have to attend more meetings to know whether they are repetitive.

I'm concerned that Trump is convinced he's the smartest guy on any topic. If you're the smartest guy in the room, that usually means you have the wrong people in the room.

Did Sean Spicer say that Trump had changed his mind on that? What I saw was Spicer's comment about keeping the daily press briefing.

I'd be delighted to hear that Trump is receiving the daily intelligence briefing after all. Did he change his mind on this?

Robert wrote:Lastly, while the attackers have not come from these areas, today the US government sees ISIS and Al Queda as the enemy. These countries strongholds for who Trump admin (His secretaries) sees as the enemy. This is why these countries were identified, again by the Obama administration.


Of course ISIS and Al Qaeda are American's enemies. And yes, these countries are failed states and strongholds for this kind of group. That's why people are fleeing them. That's why people coming here from these countries get 18 to 24 months extreme vetting - enough that nobody has slipped through and committed a terrorist act here. And that's why we should be merciful to the refugees who come here, fleeing what they face in those countries.
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Bootstrap
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Re: Immigration - is Trump different from Obama?

Postby Bootstrap » Mon Jan 30, 2017 6:05 pm

Robert wrote:Once his people get in and in place and can better evaluate, they plan to readdress this issue.

On a personal note, I am not nor have been a Trump supporter. I view him through the same lens I viewed Obama and Bush. His executive orders are more administration then legislation. This I like.


It's way too early to evaluate Trump's presidency, but it's not too early to pray, and it's not too early to keep our eyes open. When we pray, let's ask for God's guidance on him.

It's also probably too early to do an apples-to-apples comparison of Trump's executive orders versus Obama's, and I'm lazy enough to wait until someone who gets paid for it produces a good one. I agree with you that you should be careful not to expand executive power beyond what the Constitution gives a president.
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Robert
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Re: Immigration - is Trump different from Obama?

Postby Robert » Mon Jan 30, 2017 9:14 pm

Trump seems to be working towards not needing to deal with refugees here.

The King of Saudi Arabia and the Crown Prince of Abu Dhabi agreed with President Donald Trump’s request to support safe zones for refugees in the Middle East, the White House announced Sunday.

A White House readout of the call between President Trump and Saudi Arabian King Salman bin Abd Al-Aziz Al Saud said that the King agreed to “support safe zones in Syria and Yemen, as well as supporting other ideas to help the many refugees who are displaced by the ongoing conflicts.”

The readout of the call between Trump and Abu Dhabi Crown Prince Sheikh Muhammad bin Zayid Al Nuhayyan of the United Arab Emirates was less specific but shared the same sentiment. “The President also raised the idea of supporting safe zones for the refugees displaced by the conflict in the region, and the Crown Prince agreed to support this initiative,” the White House said.


We will see how this pans out.
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JimFoxvog
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Re: Immigration - is Trump different from Obama?

Postby JimFoxvog » Mon Jan 30, 2017 10:25 pm

Valerie wrote:This idea that it [Islam] is a 'peaceful' religion is simply not true.

I think using these incidents as examples of Islam is like using the Inquisition and the KKK as examples of Christianity. The teaching of mainline Islam is peaceful. There are people who use the religion to further their evil ends. If you want to talk about Islam as a heresy following a false prophet, I won't argue. To me the main point is there are people enslaved to a religion that leads to death, and Christ can bring them life. But we can't bring them to Christ without love.
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ohio jones
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Re: Immigration - is Trump different from Obama?

Postby ohio jones » Tue Jan 31, 2017 2:29 am

Bootstrap wrote:His campaign website calls this a ban on Muslim immigration - precisely what Trump is now saying it is not.

The EO is not, in its initial implementation, a ban on Muslim immigration (you did read it, right?); it is a ban on immigrant and nonimmigrant entry from specific countries containing about 12% of the Muslims not already in the US. It could effectively become a ban on Muslim immigration if most Muslim-majority countries are added to the list. It could facilitate an increase in Muslim immigration if Muslim-minority countries are added to the list. By the time the list is revised, there will be hysteria in another quarter and few will notice.
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Bootstrap
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Re: Immigration - is Trump different from Obama?

Postby Bootstrap » Tue Jan 31, 2017 7:18 am

JimFoxvog wrote:
Valerie wrote:This idea that it [Islam] is a 'peaceful' religion is simply not true.

I think using these incidents as examples of Islam is like using the Inquisition and the KKK as examples of Christianity. The teaching of mainline Islam is peaceful. There are people who use the religion to further their evil ends. If you want to talk about Islam as a heresy following a false prophet, I won't argue. To me the main point is there are people enslaved to a religion that leads to death, and Christ can bring them life. But we can't bring them to Christ without love.


Here's the narrative - "they hate and fear us, and want to destroy us". As long as their extremists keep pushing that view about us, and we keep pushing that view about them, we can continue to be part of the cycle of hatred and fear.
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Bootstrap
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Re: Immigration - is Trump different from Obama?

Postby Bootstrap » Tue Jan 31, 2017 8:18 am

ohio jones wrote:
Bootstrap wrote:His campaign website calls this a ban on Muslim immigration - precisely what Trump is now saying it is not.

The EO is not, in its initial implementation, a ban on Muslim immigration (you did read it, right?); it is a ban on immigrant and nonimmigrant entry from specific countries containing about 12% of the Muslims not already in the US.


Sure, but it doesn't help when his own aides keep using phrases like "Muslim ban" when talking about it. For instance, when Giuliani described how it came about:

"I’ll tell you the whole history of it: When he first announced it, he said ‘Muslim ban,'" Giuliani said on Fox News. "He called me up, he said, ‘Put a commission together, show me the right way to do it legally.’"

Giuliani said he then put together a commission that included lawmakers and expert lawyers.
"And what we did was we focused on, instead of religion, danger," Giuliani said.


So they apparently started with a goal - a Muslim ban - and set about looking for a legal justification. The justification they came up with is danger, but no specific dangers have been mentioned, and nobody from any of these countries has ever committed a terrorist act in the United States, probably due to the existing screening. There's no explanation of what shortcomings Trump sees in the current screening process. There's no mention of a specific credible threat that he was trying to prevent.

Jim Mattis, the new secretary of defense, was not given a chance to weigh in, and neither was Customs and Border Patrol. The State Department dissented, the Attorney General refused to enforce it, a lot of Republicans are not on board with this either.

ohio jones wrote:It could effectively become a ban on Muslim immigration if most Muslim-majority countries are added to the list. It could facilitate an increase in Muslim immigration if Muslim-minority countries are added to the list. By the time the list is revised, there will be hysteria in another quarter and few will notice.


That's an obvious concern. Freedom of religion is a core value in this country.
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