[Poll] A Christlike Response to Trump's Border Security Orders

Events occurring and how they relate/affect Anabaptist faith and culture.

If you had an hour to spend, which do you think Jesus would be pleased with… (choose all that apply)

1. Helping immigrants learn how to shop at Wal-Mart and being ready to give an answer if asked of the hope that lies within
16
20%
2. Holding signs along the road that are obviously aimed at disagreeing with “Caesar’s” executive order and then posting pictures on Facebook and thereby “lobbying” against the King as Supreme.
4
5%
3. Writing a letter to Caesar appealing to him to be more thoughtful of others when he makes his decrees, and to show greater respect to his team, so that thousands of people do not need to stay up all night trying to deal with the consequences.
8
10%
4. Getting together with other Christians and praying about how to help some immigrants.
19
24%
5. Writing a letter to Caesar about the hope that lies within and explaining how those who have the love of Jesus have a peace inside that does not make them fear death like the world does and makes them glad to share their possessions and opportunities with the less fortunate.
8
10%
6. Other. Write in this thread.
9
11%
7. Encouraging other Christians to think about what a Christlike response should be.
16
20%
 
Total votes: 80

Robert
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Re: [Poll] A Christlike Response to Trump's Border Security Orders

Postby Robert » Fri Feb 03, 2017 12:00 pm

Bootstrap wrote:We are talking about a program that admits a tiny fraction of refugees after careful vetting that takes years.


Who does that vetting and how do they do it when there is no government in place?

I am not personally scared of refugees, but you make it sound like this is a very secure process. This is why so many are. The vetting process is not really that good.
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Re: [Poll] A Christlike Response to Trump's Border Security Orders

Postby Valerie » Fri Feb 03, 2017 2:17 pm

Boot- perhaps you should read this- and perhaps order the book (By this former Muslim)- it is what I have heard from many former Muslim's that have become Christians- they try and enlighten/inform people about Islam-
The fact that you do not see as many terror attacks here, as you do in other countries is because of Homeland Security and all that has been put in place to thwart these attacks- it's not because there haven't been 'plans'- so does President Trump have an obligation to do what he is doing, knowing the truth about Radical Islam? THEY put pressure on their own Muslims to 'get with the program' to convert others-

http://www.cbn.com/cbnnews/us/2011/sept ... bile=false

just to emphasize one comment from the above link:

Infiltrating the Infidels

"Muslims know very well that the best way to conquer is not by the sword anymore," Fadi said.

"It's by infiltrating the societies, the political systems, and by basically taking their time to grow, to become a majority that at some point, they will have a voice that they can topple things basically to their advantage," he said.

With The Qur'an Dilemma, Fadi hopes to ensure that never happens.


You and many leftist seem to paint the picture there is no reason to take radical steps to secure our borders from terrorism. Just today another attack in Paris. So- we are doing a better job 'here' than others are- it's not the 'lack of plans' that we don't see more terrorist attacks here but perhaps DHS is doing a better job. President Trump has to do, what President's & Kings do-
We as Christians do what we are told/called/instructed to do by Jesus Words & Holy Scripture teachings-
You seem to forget that the goal of Islam is to force the world, to become Islam- and they are not going to stop- this is their (false) prophetic time in their own (false) religion-
Again a Christ like response to President's Security orders? Let the President do his job- he is God's minister (Romans 13) pray for him and when engaged in conversations ABOUT this, don't jump on the bandwagon of Trump haters- that is neither Christ like, nor will it help our country's present state of much unrest. And speak the TRUTH in love- educating people on Islam, especially in what they believe is 'their time' will help them understand that this is not prejudice, it is recognition of the threat.
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Re: [Poll] A Christlike Response to Trump's Border Security Orders

Postby Bootstrap » Fri Feb 03, 2017 2:20 pm

Robert wrote:
Bootstrap wrote:We are talking about a program that admits a tiny fraction of refugees after careful vetting that takes years.


Who does that vetting and how do they do it when there is no government in place?

I am not personally scared of refugees, but you make it sound like this is a very secure process. This is why so many are. The vetting process is not really that good.


I don't want to distract from the Christlike Response thread, but I'm not sure how much you know about the vetting process. Of course this is not done by the government they are fleeing, most of it is done by American agencies - see this thread. Take a look at that thread, and make specific suggestions for what you think should be changed.

Choosing our Christlike response is the most important question, how can we be the hands, feet, and heart of Jesus? So in this thread, I'm going to try to keep the focus on that.
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Re: [Poll] A Christlike Response to Trump's Border Security Orders

Postby mike » Fri Feb 03, 2017 3:04 pm

Wayne in Maine wrote:In the immigration and refugee debate, we cannot expect the American people to open their borders unconditionally to any and all who want to live in this country, not to open the treasury to support them, even if we, as Christians, are obliged to forgive seventy-times-seven or let people take advantage of us. Welcoming the foreigner and stranger is an obligation to God’s nation – America is not ancient Israel under the rule of the Law and the Prophets. I do not think it is the place of followers of Jesus to condemn a nation for making rules about whom it will allow into its territory. And I don’t think the prophetic voice that can condemn murder or decry destructive immorality can be applied to border controls or immigration limitations.


Szdfan brought up Isaiah earlier if I remember correctly. I started teaching through Isaiah in our church's Sunday school in January and I'm slated to teach an introduction to the book at a Bible school this spring. So I having been thinking for some time about what the role of a prophet was in Israel, and what that translates to for us as Christians today.

I think it is very true that America is neither ancient Israel nor a modern equivalent. There are many people today who want to make America into a righteous nation governed by God's laws, and Christians into the prophets who speak truth to the kings of our day.

God's people are no longer a nation-state, and today's "Jews" are those who are one inwardly.

We may have the best concept of what it means for Christians to be prophets in the Great Commission.
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Re: [Poll] A Christlike Response to Trump's Border Security Orders

Postby PeterG » Fri Feb 03, 2017 3:20 pm

Bootstrap wrote:
PeterG wrote:I would not have found it necessary to post here in the way that I have if I hadn't felt that some people were saying that the policies in question—or, more importantly, the structures and attitudes that underlie them—are or could be compatible with the way of Jesus. I don't think I've advocated any political action. I've expressed my great discomfort with anything that could be associated with political protest, on this or any other issue.

We need to find ways of walking in the flesh without warring after the flesh (2 Cor. 10), which must include identifying and facing wrong/sin/evil without resorting to carnal weapons. This is obviously a great challenge, and I doubt that I meet it as successfully as I'd like to think that I do.


I like the way you put that. What guidelines would you suggest?

I'm still figuring this out. I really appreciated this part of what Wayne said—
Wayne in Maine wrote:We can call for those citizens to become part of God’s Kingdom which abides by those rules, but we cannot impose them on those who refuse to join us. This is especially true if imposing those commands requires the state to create laws, for by doing so we are expecting the state to use the sword to impose the ethics of the Kingdom of God on its citizens.
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Re: [Poll] A Christlike Response to Trump's Border Security Orders

Postby PeterG » Fri Feb 03, 2017 4:16 pm

Wayne in Maine wrote:I think this is an important issue, and one I have wrestled with over the years. Part of the issue is that the demands Jesus puts on us as members of His kingdom are totally impractical for a politically and territorially defined nation to put into practice. In a real sense, followers of Jesus form a community that is under a covenant with God who is our ruler, provider and our protector – while we continue in obedience and subjugation to Him. A territorial nation that will not subjugate themselves to Him do not have the benefit, or the obligations of the covenant.

Those who do not subjugate themselves to God are not obligated to obey Him? Does this apply only to territorial nations, while individuals and other types of groups are obligated to obey regardless of their subjugation? I'm skeptical. I see nothing in the New Testament that exempts anyone from obedience to God.

Wayne in Maine wrote:On one level there are obvious and perhaps universal laws that benefit all people and nations to adhere to. Murder is the perfect example - if a government is indiscriminately murdering people it is appropriate to speak prophetically against it. If a ruler does not speak truthfully or steals from his people, then it’s not inappropriate for anyone to speak against it. This of course becomes more ambiguous with other matters like abortion, divorce or homosexuality. There are grey areas.

On the other hand, the “hard” commands of Christ, such as requiring His followers to give to whoever asks or even to love one's enemy, cannot really be expected of non-Christian citizens of a nation.

Again, I'm skeptical. Where does the New Testament differentiate among universal laws, gray areas, and "hard" commands?

Wayne in Maine wrote:We can call for those citizens to become part of God’s Kingdom which abides by those rules, but we cannot impose them on those who refuse to join us. This is especially true if imposing those commands requires the state to create laws, for by doing so we are expecting the state to use the sword to impose the ethics of the Kingdom of God on its citizens.

I strongly agree with you on this point.

What I don't understand is why you seem to apply it to some types of issues and not to others. We must not impose the "hard" commands, but we must also not impose honesty or other "universal laws." If there's a way to speak prophetically against murder, dishonesty, and divorce without resorting to coercion, there must also be a way to speak prophetically against failure to obey the "hard" commands without resorting to coercion. This is the problem with political activism regardless of motivation or ideology.
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Re: [Poll] A Christlike Response to Trump's Border Security Orders

Postby Wayne in Maine » Sat Feb 04, 2017 7:55 am

PeterG wrote:What I don't understand is why you seem to apply it to some types of issues and not to others. We must not impose the "hard" commands, but we must also not impose honesty or other "universal laws." If there's a way to speak prophetically against murder, dishonesty, and divorce without resorting to coercion, there must also be a way to speak prophetically against failure to obey the "hard" commands without resorting to coercion. This is the problem with political activism regardless of motivation or ideology.

There is a way to speak prophetically concerning all of God's will - by preaching the good news of the Kingdom and calling men and women to repentance.

While neither the New Testament nor the old differentiate between natural (universal) law and practices specific to a religion, human societies do. If you disagree then we are left with no alternative but to remain always silent in the face of murder, theft and adultery - which is also a real and maybe even a reasonable alternative.
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Re: [Poll] A Christlike Response to Trump's Border Security Orders

Postby Wayne in Maine » Sat Feb 04, 2017 8:01 am

Bootstrap wrote: Most countries believe that they have some obligation to victims of war and catastrophes in other countries. Perhaps a nation with many Christians living in it can do as well as nations that do not have Christians. Perhaps Christians will be at least as willing to open our wallets, even if it involves paying taxes. We're willing to pay taxes to fight wars, and many of these people are victims of wars we started or fostered.

I don't think we are here to condemn nations, but to plead for the poor and oppressed and helpless. For the same reason that we want to protect unborn children from being murdered, we should also want to protect innocent victims of war and terror.

The simple fact is that the United States government and people do welcome refugees and assist in disasters. The issue here is a matter of security, nothing more, though lots of people who dislike the current president are making it out to be more.
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Re: [Poll] A Christlike Response to Trump's Border Security Orders

Postby PeterG » Sat Feb 04, 2017 9:26 am

Wayne in Maine wrote:While neither the New Testament nor the old differentiate between natural (universal) law and practices specific to a religion, human societies do. If you disagree then we are left with no alternative but to remain always silent in the face of murder, theft and adultery - which is also a real and maybe even a reasonable alternative.

If the church may allow itself to be so affected by the unbiblical distinctions of the societies in which it finds itself, then we are adrift indeed.

Silence in the face of evil may be "reasonable," but it would also be unfaithful. You can't call people to repentance while tiptoeing around the things they need to repent of.
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Re: [Poll] A Christlike Response to Trump's Border Security Orders

Postby Bootstrap » Sat Feb 04, 2017 9:56 am

Wayne in Maine wrote:The simple fact is that the United States government and people do welcome refugees and assist in disasters.


I think that has been a core American value for many years. I don't think Kingdom Christians need to tell Caesar to drop that value. I do think we should offer to help refugees who come here.

Wayne in Maine wrote:The issue here is a matter of security, nothing more, though lots of people who dislike the current president are making it out to be more.


To think clearly as Kingdom Christians, we have to stop thinking in terms of Republican vs. Democrat, pro-Trump vs. anti-Trump, and we have to stop saying that someone who disagrees with us obviously cannot think like a Christian because all things are measured by our political factions. That's not how the Kingdom of God is measured. Perhaps dropping these phrases from our vocabulary would be useful. We can't think like Kingdom Christians using partisan political vocabulary and tropes.

That's all I'll say in this thread, I'll pick up the policy question in one of the political threads.
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