[Poll] A Christlike Response to Trump's Border Security Orders

Events occurring and how they relate/affect Anabaptist faith and culture.

If you had an hour to spend, which do you think Jesus would be pleased with… (choose all that apply)

1. Helping immigrants learn how to shop at Wal-Mart and being ready to give an answer if asked of the hope that lies within
16
20%
2. Holding signs along the road that are obviously aimed at disagreeing with “Caesar’s” executive order and then posting pictures on Facebook and thereby “lobbying” against the King as Supreme.
4
5%
3. Writing a letter to Caesar appealing to him to be more thoughtful of others when he makes his decrees, and to show greater respect to his team, so that thousands of people do not need to stay up all night trying to deal with the consequences.
8
10%
4. Getting together with other Christians and praying about how to help some immigrants.
19
24%
5. Writing a letter to Caesar about the hope that lies within and explaining how those who have the love of Jesus have a peace inside that does not make them fear death like the world does and makes them glad to share their possessions and opportunities with the less fortunate.
8
10%
6. Other. Write in this thread.
9
11%
7. Encouraging other Christians to think about what a Christlike response should be.
16
20%
 
Total votes: 80

Szdfan
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Re: [Poll] A Christlike Response to Trump's Border Security Orders

Postby Szdfan » Thu Feb 02, 2017 9:21 am

Can anyone explain the difference to me between a "safe zone" and a refugee camp?
0 x

Josh
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Re: [Poll] A Christlike Response to Trump's Border Security Orders

Postby Josh » Thu Feb 02, 2017 9:50 am

When did Jesus help groups of people resettle from one country to another?
0 x

Szdfan
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Re: [Poll] A Christlike Response to Trump's Border Security Orders

Postby Szdfan » Thu Feb 02, 2017 10:04 am

Josh wrote:When did Jesus help groups of people resettle from one country to another?

His Daddy did...
3 x

Bootstrap
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Re: [Poll] A Christlike Response to Trump's Border Security Orders

Postby Bootstrap » Thu Feb 02, 2017 10:06 am

Can Christians agree on what a Christlike response is? If not all Christians, at least Mennonites and Anabaptists? I would hope so ... but it's a lot harder than I wish. It's even hard to have the conversation. And that affects our credibility.

Interesting opinion piece in Time magazine this morning: The Myth That Christianity Provides Ethical Guidance. It mentions Bannon's "church militant" and Mennonites in two paragraphs. Can we prove Alan Levinovitz wrong?

Where I teach, in Harrisonburg, Virginia, there is a large Mennonite population. They, like Quakers and other pacifist Christians, take Jesus’s teachings to mean that Christians should never participate in war. Some refuse to pay taxes that might support the military. Needless to say, there is ample material in the Bible to back up their arguments.

Nevertheless, their perspective is a minority one. Despite widespread understanding of Christ as a radical pacifist—“turn the other cheek”—the vast majority of Christians still believe in justified violence. Many Catholic theologians have vindicated the Crusades as bellum sacrum (Holy War), and thus a legitimate response to Muslim violence against Christians. Similar rationale justifies Christian participation in war today, and there’s no better example of it than a 2014 speech by Trump’s advisor, Stephen Bannon, delivered to a conference hosted in the Vatican. “We’re at the very beginning stages of a very brutal and bloody conflict,” Bannon warns, telling his audience that “the people in the church” must “bind together and really form what I feel is an aspect of the church militant.”


These differences lead him to this conclusion:

But it is a mistake to act as if Christianity provides definitive ethical guidance. It’s true that the clarity of righteousness can inspire confidence and solidarity—we are Christians; the bad people are not. The sign-holders seek to provide that clarity, and are convinced their message will remind other faithful to follow the agreed-upon path. Unfortunately, it will not. In truth, there is no such path, because there is no such thing as Christianity.

It’s not that Christians aren’t united by their faith in Christ. But the practical implications of that faith vary dramatically. When it comes to ethics there are, in fact, many Christianities, each of which is as much a product of historical, cultural and political circumstances as it is of God’s eternal word. As a result, it can be "Christian" to build a wall or to fight a war or protest either, depending on how circumstances have come to define your interpretation of scripture.


Sadly, he concludes that Christianity has no meaningful ethical guidelines, because Christians can come to just about any conclusion about what Scripture teaches.
1 x
Is it biblical? Is it Christlike? Is it loving? Is it true? How can I find out?

Bootstrap
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Re: [Poll] A Christlike Response to Trump's Border Security Orders

Postby Bootstrap » Thu Feb 02, 2017 10:26 am

Szdfan wrote:
Josh wrote:When did Jesus help groups of people resettle from one country to another?

His Daddy did...


Warning his parents to escape to Egypt so that he would not be killed, and telling his parents when it was time to return.

Refugees and foreigners are a big topic in Scripture. There must be 20+ passages on that topic earlier in this thread.
1 x
Is it biblical? Is it Christlike? Is it loving? Is it true? How can I find out?

Szdfan
Posts: 47
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Re: [Poll] A Christlike Response to Trump's Border Security Orders

Postby Szdfan » Thu Feb 02, 2017 10:34 am

Bootstrap wrote:
Szdfan wrote:
Josh wrote:When did Jesus help groups of people resettle from one country to another?

His Daddy did...


Warning his parents to escape to Egypt so that he would not be killed, and telling his parents when it was time to return.

Refugees and foreigners are a big topic in Scripture. There must be 20+ passages on that topic earlier in this thread.

I was also thinking of Exodus, which was when God led the Hebrew people out of slavery in Egypt and was a fundamental identifier of who Israel was and their relationship to God ("I am the Lord your God who led you out of Egypt.")
0 x

appleman2006
Posts: 332
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Affiliation: Midwest Mennonite

Re: [Poll] A Christlike Response to Trump's Border Security Orders

Postby appleman2006 » Thu Feb 02, 2017 3:13 pm

So in all of this discussion I think I must be missing something. My comments here are not primarily directed at those of you that feel it is right and proper to be politically active. While I do not understand how a person can claim he is against war and all violence and still hold political office in a country where your president's chief role is chief commander of the troops I leave that dilemma to you and for another time.
My confusion and question has more to do with those of you that feel you are totally from a separate Kingdom. You do not see our country as Christian. You recognize it as a totally separate Kingdom.
And yet I have heard numerous ones of you as well as people in my real life take a vigorous position on border issues and decry your government's present stance on immigration as decidedly unchristian. Well duh. Since when did we start to demand that our government act in a Christian way? Why is it even our calling to do that? We cannot have it both ways. If it is not our Kingdom and we feel so strongly about that that we do not even vote why do we feel it is our calling to ask the government to suddenly work as a theocracy?
As I see it borders are simply a tool that governments use to attempt to keep a level of law and order. It is as much a tool as prisons, armies, guns, police officers, and the list goes on.
I am not saying it is a good tool or an effective tool but is that even for us to say?
Frankly if I believed it was my duty to tell the government to act in a Christian way or even if I believed that were possible I would be running for office tomorrow.
But I do not see it that way. I see my duty to use every opportunity that is given me to help my neighbours and I use that word in it's broadest sense. As a Christian we should not have borders necessarily. We should work within the laws of our country to help those around us and we should take every opportunity to help those outside of our country wherever we can. Perhaps in extreme cases there may even be times where we have to break the laws of a country to be the hands and feet of Jesus to our neighbours but we also then have to be ready to accept the consequences.
There. Thanks for letting me let off a bit of steam. I will be the first to admit that I can get my two kingdom theology mixed up a bit at times but some of the stuff I have been hearing the last few days just makes no sense to me.
4 x

MaxPC
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Re: [Poll] A Christlike Response to Trump's Border Security Orders

Postby MaxPC » Thu Feb 02, 2017 3:17 pm

appleman2006 wrote:So in all of this discussion I think I must be missing something. My comments here are not primarily directed at those of you that feel it is right and proper to be politically active. While I do not understand how a person can claim he is against war and all violence and still hold political office in a country where your president's chief role is chief commander of the troops I leave that dilemma to you and for another time.
My confusion and question has more to do with those of you that feel you are totally from a separate Kingdom. You do not see our country as Christian. You recognize it as a totally separate Kingdom.
And yet I have heard numerous ones of you as well as people in my real life take a vigorous position on border issues and decry your government's present stance on immigration as decidedly unchristian. Well duh. Since when did we start to demand that our government act in a Christian way? Why is it even our calling to do that? We cannot have it both ways. If it is not our Kingdom and we feel so strongly about that that we do not even vote why do we feel it is our calling to ask the government to suddenly work as a theocracy?
As I see it borders are simply a tool that governments use to attempt to keep a level of law and order. It is as much a tool as prisons, armies, guns, police officers, and the list goes on.
I am not saying it is a good tool or an effective tool but is that even for us to say?
Frankly if I believed it was my duty to tell the government to act in a Christian way or even if I believed that were possible I would be running for office tomorrow.
But I do not see it that way. I see my duty to use every opportunity that is given me to help my neighbours and I use that word in it's broadest sense. As a Christian we should not have borders necessarily. We should work within the laws of our country to help those around us and we should take every opportunity to help those outside of our country wherever we can. Perhaps in extreme cases there may even be times where we have to break the laws of a country to be the hands and feet of Jesus to our neighbours but we also then be ready to accept the consequences.
There. Thanks for letting me let off a bit of steam. I will be the first to admit that I can get my two kingdom theology mixed up a bit at times but some of the stuff I have been hearing the last few days just makes no sense to me.

Amen. :up: :clap:
1 x
Max (aka Plain Catholic)
Psalm 105

Bootstrap
Posts: 1370
Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2016 9:59 am
Affiliation: Kingdom Christian

Re: [Poll] A Christlike Response to Trump's Border Security Orders

Postby Bootstrap » Thu Feb 02, 2017 3:25 pm

appleman2006 wrote:My confusion and question has more to do with those of you that feel you are totally from a separate Kingdom. You do not see our country as Christian. You recognize it as a totally separate Kingdom.

And yet I have heard numerous ones of you as well as people in my real life take a vigorous position on border issues and decry your government's present stance on immigration as decidedly unchristian. Well duh. Since when did we start to demand that our government act in a Christian way? Why is it even our calling to do that? We cannot have it both ways. If it is not our Kingdom and we feel so strongly about that that we do not even vote why do we feel it is our calling to ask the government to suddenly work as a theocracy?


Paul calls us ambassadors to Christ. An ambassador belongs to another Kingdom, but he does try to influence the kingdom he is in. In fact, that's why he is there. I agree that our primary purpose is to act directly, and that's something I'm doing on the refugee issue. Often, the best way to speak out is by example, caring for refugees, adopting children, etc. But there are times to speak out.

Issues like abortion, caring for the vulnerable, avoiding warmongering, and refugees are important. If we have nothing at all to say about these issues, we don't have much to say. People will look at Trump's Evangelical followers and conclude that they are what Christianity stands for.

Can we prove Alan Levinovitz wrong?
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Is it biblical? Is it Christlike? Is it loving? Is it true? How can I find out?

appleman2006
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Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2016 1:50 pm
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Re: [Poll] A Christlike Response to Trump's Border Security Orders

Postby appleman2006 » Thu Feb 02, 2017 3:34 pm

But can we expect a worldly Kingdom to act like Christ's Kingdom. Is not our real calling to win over citizens to God's Kingdom rather than expect a worldly system to become a theocracy? I appreciate the ambassador analogy. I am simply not sure the exact parallel can be made to a modern day ambassador. We are called to win over citizens as I see it. We are not called to try and change the laws of the country we are living in. Come to think of it that is not a modern day ambassador's job either.
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