[Poll] A Christlike Response to Trump's Border Security Orders

Events occurring and how they relate/affect Anabaptist faith and culture.

If you had an hour to spend, which do you think Jesus would be pleased with… (choose all that apply)

1. Helping immigrants learn how to shop at Wal-Mart and being ready to give an answer if asked of the hope that lies within
16
20%
2. Holding signs along the road that are obviously aimed at disagreeing with “Caesar’s” executive order and then posting pictures on Facebook and thereby “lobbying” against the King as Supreme.
4
5%
3. Writing a letter to Caesar appealing to him to be more thoughtful of others when he makes his decrees, and to show greater respect to his team, so that thousands of people do not need to stay up all night trying to deal with the consequences.
8
10%
4. Getting together with other Christians and praying about how to help some immigrants.
19
24%
5. Writing a letter to Caesar about the hope that lies within and explaining how those who have the love of Jesus have a peace inside that does not make them fear death like the world does and makes them glad to share their possessions and opportunities with the less fortunate.
8
10%
6. Other. Write in this thread.
9
11%
7. Encouraging other Christians to think about what a Christlike response should be.
16
20%
 
Total votes: 80

Bootstrap
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Re: [Poll] A Christlike Response to Trump's Border Security Orders

Postby Bootstrap » Tue Jan 31, 2017 12:52 pm

Valerie wrote:We've had to accept leaders that furthered actual evil, yet we did not revile and we did make it a practice to pray for them.


Since Nixon, the first president I remember well, every single one furthered actual evil. When Paul told us to pray for leaders, those leaders furthered actual evil. Let's not be naive about that. Even Jimmy Carter - who is very much a solid Christian and had the best of intentions - did things that furthered actual evil.

And yes, let's pray for them and implore God to heal this land.
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Valerie
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Re: [Poll] A Christlike Response to Trump's Border Security Orders

Postby Valerie » Tue Jan 31, 2017 1:06 pm

Bootstrap wrote:
Valerie wrote:We've had to accept leaders that furthered actual evil, yet we did not revile and we did make it a practice to pray for them.


Since Nixon, the first president I remember well, every single one furthered actual evil. When Paul told us to pray for leaders, those leaders furthered actual evil. Let's not be naive about that. Even Jimmy Carter - who is very much a solid Christian and had the best of intentions - did things that furthered actual evil.

And yes, let's pray for them and implore God to heal this land.


Yes, indeed- evil is waxing worse and worse, this was prophesied, but God is allowing this in His Providential plan- towards the end of days- we know the prophesies- yet He expects us to pray for our government. I don't know if the average Christian really takes that too heart- after 9/11 our small group Bible study admitted they had not been faithfully praying for our government- it was a wake up call (for us) to do so and do so diligently and with more fervor and more faith that God is in control. He is working out His purposes, as He always has used kings and leaders, good and evil. But to me, a response is NOT to join in with protestors- that would be 'resistant' not, non-resistant and not being obedient to Scripture regarding Romans 13 and other passages. Divisive and increasing hate towards a President who is trying to do what he was elected to do, he will make mistakes like they all do. He has stated he wants to help refugees, and I do believe he was not lying.
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appleman2006
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Re: [Poll] A Christlike Response to Trump's Border Security Orders

Postby appleman2006 » Tue Jan 31, 2017 1:35 pm

Sorry Valerie. I can see how you might have got that from a quick reading of my post. I am not very optimistic about Trump being a good and successful president. Even if I believed in everything he says he wants to do I have grave misgivings about him being able to execute them based on the fact that a vast majority of your country is not even willing to give him the traditional honeymoon that most presidents are given. I think that alone will doom his chances of success. But do I wish him success in leading well. Of course I do, just as I did with his predecessor and as I do with each of our own leaders. And I do wish that people that think the alternative this time around would of been that much better would give their heads a shake.
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PeterG
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Re: [Poll] A Christlike Response to Trump's Border Security Orders

Postby PeterG » Tue Jan 31, 2017 2:27 pm

Valerie wrote:He didn't say "with those whom he identifies"- did he?

I'm not aware that he's used that wording, but that is the overall impression that I get from his rhetoric. I suppose we could take some time to examine his voluminous, well-documented statements of the last couple of years, but I'm afraid we'd each end up seeing in them what we already think is there.

Valerie wrote:With the Anabaptist view of separation of Church and State, I'm not sure why you expect the emperor to follow Jesus?

I believe that Trump should separate himself from the state and commit himself fully to the church—or rather, to the Head of the church. It is God who expects everyone to follow Jesus; that is why He will judge those who do not (Matt. 7:21–27).

Valerie wrote:However- President Trump does show signs of changing

This is the opposite of what I've been hearing, which is that Trump is actually doing the things that he said he would do all along. If he changes, he will do things that are different from the things he said would do. He will either change and break his campaign promises, or not change and keep them.

Valerie wrote:I appreciate the kindness of the signs by the Christian protestors- BUT it pits them against our elected leader who is trying to protect the nation he was voted in to protect- so really it is causing more division.

As I've said, I am very uneasy with the idea of even appearing to join protests, signs-and-marching style. I must add that what both you and I have said applies equally to Right to Life protests.

Valerie wrote:A kingdom divided against itself, will come to ruin

Yes, which is just another reason it is imperative to not belong to that kingdom.

I really appreciate your emphasis on prayer for our government. That's something I need to grow in.
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Bootstrap
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Re: [Poll] A Christlike Response to Trump's Border Security Orders

Postby Bootstrap » Tue Jan 31, 2017 2:41 pm

PeterG wrote:As I've said, I am very uneasy with the idea of even appearing to join protests, signs-and-marching style. I must add that what both you and I have said applies equally to Right to Life protests.


I once lobbied for Right to Life. That experience soured me on lobbying and political protests in general. I'm not saying never, but I haven't done these things since, and that was in the mid 1980s.
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Valerie
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Re: [Poll] A Christlike Response to Trump's Border Security Orders

Postby Valerie » Tue Jan 31, 2017 9:30 pm

PeterG wrote:
Valerie wrote:He didn't say "with those whom he identifies"- did he?

I'm not aware that he's used that wording, but that is the overall impression that I get from his rhetoric. I suppose we could take some time to examine his voluminous, well-documented statements of the last couple of years, but I'm afraid we'd each end up seeing in them what we already think is there.

Valerie wrote:With the Anabaptist view of separation of Church and State, I'm not sure why you expect the emperor to follow Jesus?

I believe that Trump should separate himself from the state and commit himself fully to the church—or rather, to the Head of the church. It is God who expects everyone to follow Jesus; that is why He will judge those who do not (Matt. 7:21–27).

Valerie wrote:However- President Trump does show signs of changing

This is the opposite of what I've been hearing, which is that Trump is actually doing the things that he said he would do all along. If he changes, he will do things that are different from the things he said would do. He will either change and break his campaign promises, or not change and keep them.

Valerie wrote:I appreciate the kindness of the signs by the Christian protestors- BUT it pits them against our elected leader who is trying to protect the nation he was voted in to protect- so really it is causing more division.

As I've said, I am very uneasy with the idea of even appearing to join protests, signs-and-marching style. I must add that what both you and I have said applies equally to Right to Life protests.

Valerie wrote:A kingdom divided against itself, will come to ruin

Yes, which is just another reason it is imperative to not belong to that kingdom.

I really appreciate your emphasis on prayer for our government. That's something I need to grow in.


When I said he was showing signs of change, I was referring to his statement "I need God more than ever now"
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Valerie
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Re: [Poll] A Christlike Response to Trump's Border Security Orders

Postby Valerie » Tue Jan 31, 2017 9:31 pm

Billy Graham's son, Franklin Graham- had this to say:


"There have been a lot of protests and discussion about President Donald J. Trump’s executive action on immigration. Some people seem to have forgotten that the priority of the president of the United States is protecting the Constitution and the safety of Americans. That’s exactly what President Trump is trying to do. Taking action to secure our borders had to start somewhere. Is it perfect? Maybe not, but it is a first step. As they work on solutions during this 90-day travel ban, unfortunately there are some innocent families caught in this time of transition.


I think that a thorough vetting process really needs to apply to people coming into the U.S. from all countries—not just 7. We have to be sure that the philosophies of those entering our country are compatible with our Constitution. If a person does not agree with our principles of freedom, democracy, and liberty, which we cherish, they should not be allowed to come. Without question, Sharia law is not compatible.

Some are also criticizing Christians who support the president’s position on immigration—and I’m one of those being criticized. But we have to realize that the president’s job is not the same as the job of the church. As Christians we are clearly taught in the Bible to care for the poor and oppressed. At Samaritan's Purse we have been working in the Middle East for over 30 years. We’ve provided things like food, heaters, blankets, coats, shelter plastic, and more for tens of thousands of refugees there and in other places around the world. We just opened a 55-bed field trauma hospital in northern Iraq where we’re treating Muslims who are being wounded by other Muslims in the fight over Mosul. As Christians we are commanded to help all, regardless of religious background or ethnicity, like the Good Samaritan Jesus shared about in the Bible. Our job is to show God’s love and compassion. I believe the best way to help is to reach out and help these people in their own countries. I support the establishment of safe zones inside Syria and Iraq that would be protected by the international community until a political solution is found. We need to pray for political solutions that would bring peace and allow them to return to their homes as they desire."
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Bootstrap
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Re: [Poll] A Christlike Response to Trump's Border Security Orders

Postby Bootstrap » Tue Jan 31, 2017 9:40 pm

Valerie wrote:Billy Graham's son, Franklin Graham- had this to say:
!!! SNIP !!!


... skipping over the political part and focusing on the "Christlike response" part ...

Franklin Graham wrote:I believe the best way to help is to reach out and help these people in their own countries. I support the establishment of safe zones inside Syria and Iraq that would be protected by the international community until a political solution is found. We need to pray for political solutions that would bring peace and allow them to return to their homes as they desire."


If such safe zones are established, I'm sure MCC and other groups will send volunteers to help, and Franklin Graham's Samaritan Purse has done a lot of good work. I don't think it's possible to help them in their own countries yet. Maybe it will be in the future - I'm not good at predicting the future.

And I agree that praying for Caesar is a good thing. (Safe zones don't exist in Syria now (and probably not in Iraq?), and I'm not sure how you would establish safe zones without committing boots on the ground, but that's a question for Caesar, not for us.)

Besides prayer, any thoughts on how to respond in a Christlike way now?
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JimFoxvog
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Re: [Poll] A Christlike Response to Trump's Border Security Orders

Postby JimFoxvog » Tue Jan 31, 2017 10:14 pm

Benjamin Wittes, of the Brooking Institution, who is far from being a liberal in any sense wrote an article, Malevolence Tempered by Incompetence: Trump’s Horrifying Executive Order on Refugees and Visas found at https://lawfareblog.com/malevolence-tempered-incompetence-trumps-horrifying-executive-order-refugees-and-visas
A couple excerpts from an expert.
I don’t use the word “malevolence” here lightly. As readers of my work know, I believe in strong counterterrorism powers. I defend non-criminal detention. I’ve got no problem with drone strikes. I’m positively enthusiastic about American surveillance policies. I was much less offended than others were by the CIA’s interrogations in the years after September 11. I have defended military commissions.

Color me skeptical that this [protecting Americans] is the real purpose. After all, if this is the real purpose, then the document is both wildly over-inclusive and wildly under-inclusive. On the over-inclusive side, it will keep tens of thousands of innocent refugees who have been subject to unspeakable violence outside of the protection of the United States on the vanishingly small chance that these people might be terrorists—indeed, to make it impossible for them even to apply for refugee admission if they are Syrian. It will prevent untold numbers of people about whom there is no whiff of suspicion from coming here as students, as professionals, as tourists. It overtly treats members of a particular religion differently from other people.

On the underinclusive side, the order wouldn’t have blocked the entry of many of the people responsible for the worst recent terrorist attacks.


Let us pray for this country and its President.
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Bootstrap
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Re: [Poll] A Christlike Response to Trump's Border Security Orders

Postby Bootstrap » Tue Jan 31, 2017 10:30 pm

JimFoxvog wrote:Let us pray for this country and its President.


Amen. (I'll skip over the political commentary in this Christlike Response thread ...)
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