[Poll] A Christlike Response to Trump's Border Security Orders

Events occurring and how they relate/affect Anabaptist faith and culture.

If you had an hour to spend, which do you think Jesus would be pleased with… (choose all that apply)

1. Helping immigrants learn how to shop at Wal-Mart and being ready to give an answer if asked of the hope that lies within
16
20%
2. Holding signs along the road that are obviously aimed at disagreeing with “Caesar’s” executive order and then posting pictures on Facebook and thereby “lobbying” against the King as Supreme.
4
5%
3. Writing a letter to Caesar appealing to him to be more thoughtful of others when he makes his decrees, and to show greater respect to his team, so that thousands of people do not need to stay up all night trying to deal with the consequences.
8
10%
4. Getting together with other Christians and praying about how to help some immigrants.
19
24%
5. Writing a letter to Caesar about the hope that lies within and explaining how those who have the love of Jesus have a peace inside that does not make them fear death like the world does and makes them glad to share their possessions and opportunities with the less fortunate.
8
10%
6. Other. Write in this thread.
9
11%
7. Encouraging other Christians to think about what a Christlike response should be.
16
20%
 
Total votes: 80

Ernie
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[Poll] A Christlike Response to Trump's Border Security Orders

Postby Ernie » Mon Jan 30, 2017 7:20 am

Here are some of my thoughts…
A. Trump is not against immigrants coming to America, but IMO, he is representing those who live in fear of physical death at the hands of evil men and who don’t want to sacrifice their wealth and comfortable life, so that others can simply live.
B. Obama lived with the same fear, but not quite as much.
C. Both were involved in deportations and both limited the annual number of immigrants that could come into the country.
D. All other presidents in recent history have done the same. Some do more, and some do less, but none follow the example of Jesus. None open their arms wide open like the Statue of Liberty originally represented. Schumers statement that, "Tears are running down the cheeks of the Statue of Liberty tonight as a grand tradition of America... has been stomped upon" simply makes folks feel good. It doesn't address how many people have not been able to come to America over the last century because folks like Schumer voted to establish a numerical limit.
E. I think Trump’s biggest failure over the weekend was not respecting and caring enough about his team and issuing orders that created a lot of headaches, scheduling problems, chaos, and sleepless nights for thousands of people… and didn’t even feel bad about it.
A Politico writer describes it this way.
“The developments underscore the haphazard approach the Trump administration has taken toward using its political power. Trump issued the order Friday with little notice to or input from the Department of Homeland Security, the State Department or other agencies critical to implementing it, according to multiple sources. The order's complexity left administration lawyers scrambling to interpret it as advocacy groups filed lawsuits. Trump did not appear moved by the chaos.”
“…as a sheer matter of governance, it augurs poorly. Other administrations might have carefully briefed reporters on the details of the new policy, prepared the public, put exemptions in place, clarified exactly who would be affected. They might have crafted an outreach strategy to key allies to explain the president’s reasoning and hear out any concerns. The Trump team seems to have done none of that.”


RE: Poll #2 (signs like, “Jesus loves refugees" or "Jesus was a Mid-Eastern refugee” that could have been done before Trump ever began running for President and had fewer political implications)
RE: Poll #3 (this includes mothers with young children who need to spend the night in an airport with worried and grouchy children and family members who are wondering if and when they will see their loved ones again.)
Last edited by Ernie on Mon Jan 30, 2017 7:35 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Bootstrap
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Re: A Christlike Response to Trump's Border Security Orders

Postby Bootstrap » Mon Jan 30, 2017 7:27 am

I chose 1, 3, 4, and 6. But I think my most important response started before his orders - see viewtopic.php?f=6&t=75.

I'm thinking about whether to put a sign on my yard. I rather like this one:

Image
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Bootstrap
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Re: A Christlike Response to Trump's Border Security Orders

Postby Bootstrap » Mon Jan 30, 2017 7:38 am

Ernie wrote:Trump is not against immigrants coming to America, but IMO, he is representing those who live in fear of physical death at the hands of evil men and who don’t want to sacrifice their wealth and comfortable life, so that others can simply live.


I think a nation state has the right to do that. But I think there's more to it than that.

A real plan to protect Americans would look different. It would be planned, informed, and involve discussion with the people who know the most about these things. It would give clear instructions to the various agencies who have no idea what they are supposed to do. It already takes 18-24 months for a Syrian refugee to come to the United States, and they are thoroughly vetted. We have never had a terrorist from any of the countries on the order. We have had terrorists from other countries, but they are not on this order. If this is aimed at fixing a real problem, it should start with some discussion of what the problem is, what shortcomings he sees in the current vetting process, and that discussion should involve people who have experience and knowledge about these things. He's not even doing the daily security briefing all other presidents do, which would be a good step if he wants to learn what's going on.

I'm more cynical about this than you are. I think Trump likes to dominate headlines with sudden, dramatic moves, and really likes the elements of surprise and strong emotion. He is also trying to position himself as the only person keeping America safe. I think he's trying to consolidate power and control the headlines.
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Bootstrap
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Re: A Christlike Response to Trump's Border Security Orders

Postby Bootstrap » Mon Jan 30, 2017 7:48 am

Ernie wrote:RE: Poll #2 (signs like, “Jesus loves refugees" or "Jesus was a Mid-Eastern refugee” that could have been done before Trump ever began running for President and had fewer political implications)
RE: Poll #3 (this includes mothers with young children who need to spend the night in an airport with worried and grouchy children and family members who are wondering if and when they will see their loved ones again.)


I struggle with #2. A big part of me thinks we need to be the church, as purely as possible, whether or not that looks political. A sign making it clear that we welcome refugees is the kind of thing we did before the election, do we stop doing that now simply because the current Caesar is hostile to them? Do we let Caesar tell us to stop openly proclaiming love?

On the other hand, just showing love is less political. Perhaps a sign advertising opportunities to get involved and help refugees would be better?
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Ernie
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Re: A Christlike Response to Trump's Border Security Orders

Postby Ernie » Mon Jan 30, 2017 8:12 am

Bootstrap wrote:I'm more cynical about this than you are. I think Trump likes to dominate headlines with sudden, dramatic moves, and really likes the elements of surprise and strong emotion. He is also trying to position himself as the only person keeping America safe. I think he's trying to consolidate power and control the headlines.

I'm quite sure this is involved and is maybe a big motivator, but I don't think he secretly wishes we had lots more immigrants, and is secretly open to the risk of more frequent terrorist attacks.
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Ernie
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Re: A Christlike Response to Trump's Border Security Orders

Postby Ernie » Mon Jan 30, 2017 8:15 am

Bootstrap wrote:I struggle with #2. A big part of me thinks we need to be the church, as purely as possible, whether or not that looks political. A sign making it clear that we welcome refugees is the kind of thing we did before the election, do we stop doing that now simply because the current Caesar is hostile to them? Do we let Caesar tell us to stop openly proclaiming love?

We are talking about what you would do if you had an hour to spend this weekend in behalf of immigrants.
Yes, having a sign in your yard or holding signs year after year does not feel as politically motivated. (this doesn't mean that everyone who has or holds signs year after year is not politically motivated)
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appleman2006
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Re: A Christlike Response to Trump's Border Security Orders

Postby appleman2006 » Mon Jan 30, 2017 9:28 am

I have been doing a lot of thinking about this over the weekend.
First let me be clear about one thing. I believe as Christiana we should be ready to open out our hearts and our wallets to help needy people wherever they are. In our country last year when the borders were opened up and thousands of Syrian refugee families were allowed to come, our church was among the first in the community to host 2 families. And it was a great experience and one that we will long remember. But I do not think it was the only thing we could of done. Other churches sponsored people from their congregation to actually go over and help in some of the refugee camps. Some sent food and supplies. Some simply kept on doing what they have been doing for years and continued with programs that reach out to the many needy right here in our own communities.
As I see it borders are a mandate of the governments of this world. They are a tool used to keep law and order and help in defense. As a Christian I do not see it as my job to tell them how to use that tool anymore than I see it my job to tell them how to use any of their other defense and law and order tools. ( fines, prisons, guns, Tasers, etc.)
Some have said Trump should have gone about giving this order in a more orderly way. I have no idea. Not an expert in these things but one problem I see in announcing stuff like this ahead of time is it gives the bad guys extra time to act. It would be like me saying I am going to leave the cash drawers open and available for the next two days and then after that I am going to keep them under lock and key. Maybe a poor illustration but I think you get the point.
I am guessing that some of the same protesters out there today will also be the first to yell and scream at Trump, telling him he is not doing enough when the first terrorist attack happens on his watch.
And so as Christians I do not think the laws that countries make should be our primary concern. I do believe that we should work within those laws to help the less fortunate in our world whether they are next door or on the other side of the world. And we should do that without fear and with love and generosity.
I am guessing all of us know somebody within our reach that we can help today. Let us stop being armchair politicians and get to work in our Kingdom.
And thanks Ernie for making me think this morning and giving me an opportunity to voice some of my thoughts. I appreciate it.
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temporal1
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Re: A Christlike Response to Trump's Border Security Orders

Postby temporal1 » Mon Jan 30, 2017 10:21 am

i chose 4+6. appleman has (read my mind?) .. :)
at this time, i am bothered by so many who vowed (and continue to vow) to undermine and sabotage trump from the moment he was elected, not having served one day in office.

public displays of outward righteousness with inward intent of harming others will not fool God. this is a period to be cautious, and honest, about intent.

i prayed for obama to be led to be a good+effective POTUS, i'm doing the same for trump.
this is my way since i've been an adult, believing this is scriptural, to pray for leaders; from what i learn on this forum, it does not conflict with Anabaptist beliefs.

i agree with appleman's several points.
i described, in my own words, but - battery died! the post was lost. :-|

so, in essence, ONE HOUR is not long. :-|
presuming no one was in my presence with urgent need, regardless of their citizenship -
i would devote about half to fervent silent prayer for leadership to be led to good choices; the remaining time to fervent silent prayer that all others, including me, would be led to good/godly choices for our lives on earth.

a question for Ernie: :)
would it be constructive to have a private sub-forum to discuss politics?
anyone could visit, read, and/or post, but it would be away from public display?
to prevent politics from appearing to dominate?
(this question could go to a separate thread, even the briar patch ..
it's just-something i've been wondering about.)
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RZehr
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Re: [Poll] A Christlike Response to Trump's Border Security Orders

Postby RZehr » Mon Jan 30, 2017 11:27 am

I marked all except #2.
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Robert
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Re: [Poll] A Christlike Response to Trump's Border Security Orders

Postby Robert » Mon Jan 30, 2017 11:28 am

I have had several "discussions" with sfdfan (Jeremy) on facebook over the weekend.

He and many others have called the temporary ban inhumane and unconstitutional. I will try to respond here as I did there. Maybe I should just copy and paste. Would be a lot easier. :blah:

There are millions upon millions of people who are in similar places as the Syrians. I understand why the government will restrict travel from/to certain areas. Over 30,000 people traveled into the US the first day of the restrictions. 109 were detained since they were in transit. Most were released. A judge ruled that the order should not affect those already in transit. I think that is wise. We are not talking big numbers and the only chaos I have seen is from those overreacting to this order. Bush and Obama put similar travel restrictions during their time in office. Jimmy Carter did the same. The "outrage" is politically motivated. I know many feel it is a civil rights issue, but that is being driven by the misinformation that those who oppose Trump. They are using the same tactics they did during the elections. Hired protesters driving the "outrage." Others, unknowningly, are falling in with the anarchists and communists that are just trying to destabilize the country.

I actually think the outrage is louder than when Bush invaded Iraq with real bombs and tanks. We are talking a 3 month restriction to be reevaluated later. While it is sad that a few hundred refugees are restricted, I think of the millions in the middle of the conflict. Why do they not matter as much? Why are there not world wide protests to stop the conflict in Syria, that Obama started?

This video really talks about the issue.

https://youtu.be/LPjzfGChGlE

While many people's hearts are in the right place, immigration is not the solution. It forces people to leave their life, land, and family.

I am saddened by the protests this weekend that demand Trump stop, but never seeing a protest that demand Syria, ISIS, the US and Russia stop. I have heard a few speak out, but see little focus on the real issue.

I am also more interested in the work MCC and like organizations are doing there then what rich (in their culture) select few were able to buy their passage to the US.
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