[Poll] A Christlike Response to Trump's Border Security Orders

Events occurring and how they relate/affect Anabaptist faith and culture.

If you had an hour to spend, which do you think Jesus would be pleased with… (choose all that apply)

 
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PeterG
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Re: [Poll] A Christlike Response to Trump's Border Security Orders

Post by PeterG »

I chose 1, 4, 6, and 7, though I could potentially be open to all the options while being skeptical about some of them.

Trump's actions and proposed actions are built on rhetoric—"America first," etc.—that is openly, explicitly selfish. (The degree to which Trump is or is not different from his predecessors in this regard is beside the point. There's no need to prove that Lenin was worse than Nicholas II before demonstrating that there were many bad things about Lenin. Or vice versa, for that matter.) The actual prudence, practicality, legality, and even the true intent of the immigration orders are in some sense incidental to the selfishness to which Trump's rhetoric appeals. Against this selfishness the church must resolutely, consistently stand in action and word.

But this selfishness is not unique to Trump by any stretch, and it would be extremely unfortunate if the church's witness were to be subsumed (more than it already has been) into our society's political churning. That's why I'm wary of option 2, for example. But something is wrong if political calculations keep us from calling a thing what it is.

"Wise as serpents, harmless as doves."
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RZehr
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Re: [Poll] A Christlike Response to Trump's Border Security Orders

Post by RZehr »

Bootstrap wrote:
Ernie wrote:This thread was inspired by one of the pictures in this collection. A picture of people I know.
It is a collection called "Protest Portraits"
Nice.

Image
Hey these people are my friends! :D
I've held gospel signs, and I don't want to be too critical of holding these signs either. But I don't want to be associated with the crowd of protesters.
Without knowing these people, or without talking to them, it does appears that they are simply part of the rest of the political protesters. And I for one am skeptical of the sincerity, convictions, and motives of political protesters. I've discussed this at length with Milioni, and this is something we don't agree on. I don't want to be identified with civil rights protesters. I'd rather hold a sign alone than with the protesters.
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Valerie
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Re: [Poll] A Christlike Response to Trump's Border Security Orders

Post by Valerie »

PeterG wrote:I chose 1, 4, 6, and 7, though I could potentially be open to all the options while being skeptical about some of them.

Trump's actions and proposed actions are built on rhetoric—"America first," etc.—that is openly, explicitly selfish. (The degree to which Trump is or is not different from his predecessors in this regard is beside the point. There's no need to prove that Lenin was worse than Nicholas II before demonstrating that there were many bad things about Lenin. Or vice versa, for that matter.) The actual prudence, practicality, legality, and even the true intent of the immigration orders are in some sense incidental to the selfishness to which Trump's rhetoric appeals. Against this selfishness the church must resolutely, consistently stand in action and word.

But this selfishness is not unique to Trump by any stretch, and it would be extremely unfortunate if the church's witness were to be subsumed (more than it already has been) into our society's political churning. That's why I'm wary of option 2, for example. But something is wrong if political calculations keep us from calling a thing what it is.

"Wise as serpents, harmless as doves."
I found it mind boggling to only have 'one hour'
Considering what you are saying Peter, don't you feel the leader of any nation's first responsibility is the protection and well being of his own nation he was voted to reign over? I don't think personally, that is selfish-
Any more than Apostle Paul's statement in Galatians 6:10 is being selfish towards those 'outside the Church'- he was setting a 'priority' about how to help and who first-
King James Bible
As we have therefore opportunity, let us do good unto all men, especially unto them who are of the household of faith.
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PeterG
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Re: [Poll] A Christlike Response to Trump's Border Security Orders

Post by PeterG »

Valerie wrote:Considering what you are saying Peter, don't you feel the leader of any nation's first responsibility is the protection and well being of his own nation he was voted to reign over?
The first responsibility of every human being is to follow Jesus. If one's position of leadership compromises one's ability to follow Jesus, then it is necessary to leave that position.
Valerie wrote:I don't think personally, that is selfish-
Any more than Apostle Paul's statement in Galatians 6:10 is being selfish towards those 'outside the Church'- he was setting a 'priority' about how to help and who first-
King James Bible
As we have therefore opportunity, let us do good unto all men, especially unto them who are of the household of faith.
As I have understood it, Trump's rhetoric has expressed an absolute commitment to the well-being, as he understands it, of those with whom he identifies. This flies in the face of "love your neighbor as yourself." Remember that when Jesus was asked who one's neighbor is he told a story about a man (the "wrong" kind of man, at that) who loved someone pointedly unlike himself. Prioritization is appropriate, but Paul also said, "Let love be without dissimulation."
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Valerie
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Re: [Poll] A Christlike Response to Trump's Border Security Orders

Post by Valerie »

PeterG wrote:
Valerie wrote:Considering what you are saying Peter, don't you feel the leader of any nation's first responsibility is the protection and well being of his own nation he was voted to reign over?
The first responsibility of every human being is to follow Jesus. If one's position of leadership compromises one's ability to follow Jesus, then it is necessary to leave that position.
Valerie wrote:I don't think personally, that is selfish-
Any more than Apostle Paul's statement in Galatians 6:10 is being selfish towards those 'outside the Church'- he was setting a 'priority' about how to help and who first-
King James Bible
As we have therefore opportunity, let us do good unto all men, especially unto them who are of the household of faith.
As I have understood it, Trump's rhetoric has expressed an absolute commitment to the well-being, as he understands it, of those with whom he identifies. This flies in the face of "love your neighbor as yourself." Remember that when Jesus was asked who one's neighbor is he told a story about a man (the "wrong" kind of man, at that) who loved someone pointedly unlike himself. Prioritization is appropriate, but Paul also said, "Let love be without dissimulation."
He didn't say "with those whom he identifies"- did he? He is the leader of OUR country and he is FOR refugees and he is FOR helping people (just read about all his children do as well, who went to help him)- this is a temporary situation, and I for one don't appreciate people implying he is doing this for himself, or people 'like him'- he is not a pastor of a church, although he did state, which I haven't heard a recent president say "I need God more than ever now"- and with the Anabaptist view of separation of Church and State, I'm not sure why you expect the emperor to follow Jesus? However- President Trump does show signs of changing, and with OUR prayers, (and we do pray, correct? Does God hear? Is God moved?) and with a strong Christian who he appointed for Vice President, we need to give him a chance. I hope and pray, we are not wrong about him, all I know is most Christians I know were so relieved, to not have another Clinton administration.

I appreciate the kindness of the signs by the Christian protestors- BUT it pits them against our elected leader who is trying to protect the nation he was voted in to protect- so really it is causing more division.

A kingdom divided against itself, will come to ruin
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Bootstrap
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Re: [Poll] A Christlike Response to Trump's Border Security Orders

Post by Bootstrap »

RZehr wrote: I've held gospel signs, and I don't want to be too critical of holding these signs either. But I don't want to be associated with the crowd of protesters.

Without knowing these people, or without talking to them, it does appears that they are simply part of the rest of the political protesters. And I for one am skeptical of the sincerity, convictions, and motives of political protesters.
I definitely don't want to be seen as just one of the political protesters. I'd rather be part of a group of Christians with our own message, which should be "we welcome refugees", not "we hate Trump". But the only sign I've held at an airport recently welcomed two specific refugee families, in Arabic, so we could take them to their new apartments. That's the sign I like best.
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Is it biblical? Is it Christlike? Is it loving? Is it true? How can I find out?
appleman2006
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Re: [Poll] A Christlike Response to Trump's Border Security Orders

Post by appleman2006 »

For another perspective on this issue may I suggest David French's article in the National review. It may also be biased but I think it brings some balance to the conversation.
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Bootstrap
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Re: [Poll] A Christlike Response to Trump's Border Security Orders

Post by Bootstrap »

Valerie wrote:He is the leader of OUR country and he is FOR refugees and he is FOR helping people (just read about all his children do as well, who went to help him)- this is a temporary situation, and I for one don't appreciate people implying he is doing this for himself, or people 'like him'- he is not a pastor of a church, although he did state, which I haven't heard a recent president say "I need God more than ever now"- and with the Anabaptist view of separation of Church and State, I'm not sure why you expect the emperor to follow Jesus? However- President Trump does show signs of changing, and with OUR prayers, (and we do pray, correct? Does God hear? Is God moved?) and with a strong Christian who he appointed for Vice President, we need to give him a chance. I hope and pray, we are not wrong about him, all I know is most Christians I know were so relieved, to not have another Clinton administration.
This thread is about our response as Christians. I agree that we need to pray and hope for the best. I also think we need to reach out to help refugees.

I'm not convinced that Trump is as FOR refugees as you claim, but perhaps neither of us can truly know his heart, we can only look at his actions, pray for him, and choose our own actions. In your opinion, what actions can we take that are most Christlike in response to this action?
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Is it biblical? Is it Christlike? Is it loving? Is it true? How can I find out?
Valerie
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Re: [Poll] A Christlike Response to Trump's Border Security Orders

Post by Valerie »

appleman2006 wrote:
Robert wrote:
Bootstrap wrote:I don't think so
You think wrong my friend. The US has always had restrictions on immigration and refugees since at least WW2. Maybe before. FDR even imprisoned Japanese Americans during the war. Now that was something to protest about.

All 109 who were detained have been allowed to enter now. 109 out of 325,000.

Millions still in turmoil because of the US policies in the Middle East.
Bootstrap wrote:I see Trump making dramatic, emotional moves to make sure that he is in the headlines and to consolidate power. I suspect one of the things he is doing is seeing how much he can get away with, and he has been spreading this kind of narrative.
You see it because you believe it and see what you believe.

I believe I need more time, as I did with Obama and Bush, to really get a sense for the person and the policies this administration will do.

I hope that the long term goal is to really transform immigration and guest worker policy. If this happens after they secure things, I will be very pleased. Trump ha spoken about this is his goal. I will wait to see.


Well said Robert. I happen to personally believe that sooner or later Trump will do something really outrageous and terribly wrong. But I do not think he is there yet. And my biggest fear is that by the time he does do it no one will be listening to his naysayers anymore because they had lost all credibility and sense of right and wrong due to their hate. (not talking about anyone on here). There are a lot of people that cannot wait for him to fail. Have a bit of patience. It will happen. In the mean time be very careful that you do not underestimate him. Because people did that big time is why he is where he is.
I agree with Robert-
Appleman, are you hoping President Trump fails? Or did I misunderstand your statement. I can only imagine, what would have transpired with another Clinton administration and I thank the Lord, that did not happen. Do we believe God is Sovereign in this? Do we believe Daniel 2 that it is God who sets up kings, and removes them? We've had to accept leaders that furthered actual evil, yet we did not revile and we did make it a practice to pray for them. To me, Trump saw the runaway train of insanity on the left, and is trying to put the brakes on. I will never forget the whitehouse hosting gay's and telling them "this is your country now" and Christians that lost businesses due to their convictions, and cross gender bathrooms put in place, cross gender dressing rooms etc-
So let's pray he doesn't fail, please?
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Valerie
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Re: [Poll] A Christlike Response to Trump's Border Security Orders

Post by Valerie »

Bootstrap wrote:
Valerie wrote:He is the leader of OUR country and he is FOR refugees and he is FOR helping people (just read about all his children do as well, who went to help him)- this is a temporary situation, and I for one don't appreciate people implying he is doing this for himself, or people 'like him'- he is not a pastor of a church, although he did state, which I haven't heard a recent president say "I need God more than ever now"- and with the Anabaptist view of separation of Church and State, I'm not sure why you expect the emperor to follow Jesus? However- President Trump does show signs of changing, and with OUR prayers, (and we do pray, correct? Does God hear? Is God moved?) and with a strong Christian who he appointed for Vice President, we need to give him a chance. I hope and pray, we are not wrong about him, all I know is most Christians I know were so relieved, to not have another Clinton administration.
This thread is about our response as Christians. I agree that we need to pray and hope for the best. I also think we need to reach out to help refugees.

I'm not convinced that Trump is as FOR refugees as you claim, but perhaps neither of us can truly know his heart, we can only look at his actions, pray for him, and choose our own actions. In your opinion, what actions can we take that are most Christlike in response to this action?
The power of pray is a good response in my opinion. Christians to love those and calm the hysteria by sharing faith and that God is sovereign. Help them to see that we need to support & have respect for the highest position in our land and not tear it down, being against it, is being against the sovereign plan of God-

Help refugees if you are in an area there are some, many of them DO understand why this has happened I am sure if people quit spreading hysteria and mainstream media quits the fabrications.
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