Some thoughts on White Nationalism & Racism today on Capitol Hill

[Josh]

Josh, in the other threat you suggested that hate groups finding each other on the Internet is a real problem, didn't you?

Einstein helped create the atomic bomb and Berners-Lee gave rise to the Internet, which seems to be good at promoting pornography or allowing hate groups to find each other on the Internet. I’m not sure either of these things really were that good for the world.

Yes. Obviously. That doesn’t mean I think free speech needs to be suppressed/regulated, but the impact of the Internet seems to be negative (at least to me).

[Bootstrap]

Josh, in the other threat you suggested that hate groups finding each other on the Internet is a real problem, didn't you?

Einstein helped create the atomic bomb and Berners-Lee gave rise to the Internet, which seems to be good at promoting pornography or allowing hate groups to find each other on the Internet. I’m not sure either of these things really were that good for the world.

Yes. Obviously. That doesn’t mean I think free speech needs to be suppressed/regulated, but the impact of the Internet seems to be negative (at least to me).

To me, hate groups radicalizing and enabling each other on the Internet is the real issue that this hearing was about. When you find a "lone wolf" these days, he's almost always active in these groups, sometimes even posting pictures or live streaming during the course of the act. They brag to each other, dare each other to take the next step, goad people by saying they're never going to actually do it. They teach each other how to obtain weapons and to plan attacks. And the number of these attacks is rising.

Do you think some of this should be regulated? How do you think authorities should respond to this?

[MaxPC]

I do not feel that it is an odd thing to say in this context because it is such a small part of the overall race problem. Are there white nationalists out there? A few. Do they have any power. None at all. They are condemned by every rational person you and I know as well as about everyone else that has any power at all.

Ironically the only people Ms. Owens has ever felt threatened by are BLM people, often white people flying under the BLM name.

In almost all recent cases of church shootings etc. that have been race related it is a lone gunman that almost assuredly has some severe mental issues.

I again repeat that at this point the only real significant systemic racism out there is the type that tries to perpetuate the fact that you will be less likely to succeed simply because of the colour of your skin. And as long as we continue to proclaim that myth it will be self fulfilling in a sense.

It really does not matter who we are. If we are told often enough that we are disadvantaged and worthless we will start to act like that is the truth. That is certainly a form of racism and it is one that Ms. Owens is trying very hard to combat. and I loudly applaud her in her efforts.
Hopefully we all agree that restoring the full family unit, a father a mother in the home, cleaning up the downtown ghettos of your country, and providing meaningful employment, will do more to break this type of racism than any amount of protesting or rioting on the streets.
Ms. Owens as a public figure should of course be open to fair public scrutiny. In fact from what I have observed she welcomes it. But what took place that day by those Democratic leaders was neither fair nor right. And thankfully it has seemed to backfire big time.

Then there are the anti-Semitic remarks being made by certain politicians (Tlaib and Omar) which are both racist and religious bigotry. The entire public conversation from ALL sectors has degraded into a dog-fight. Civil discourse and respect for other races has disappeared and there are few places left on the internet where some form of racism is not present (Mennonet is one such safe place ).

The FBI is concerned. Aren't you?

I generally don’t share the FBI’s concerns. If they were better at their jobs, they would have prevented things like 9/11.

Mental health (or lack thereof) is a huge problem, and not one the FBI addresses. I’d like to hear more about this - I expect to see more problems like the Nickel Mines shooter. No real criminal motive there, just deranged, unbalanced people, abandoned by modern society, who eventually have nothing to lose.

This sums it nicely. Some (not all but some) people who feel abandoned/disenfranchised will lash out in ways that are inappropriate, even destructive. They have lost their sense of status and place in their social circles, their culture, their society. They resent the new favorite flavor of the moment and so attack the person/people in a number of ways driven by jealousy and envy. It certainly is a sign of an unhealthy emotional state.

[appleman2006]

One recent example i saw on the Internet of hate was of one of your PA government representatives accosting an older women who was quietly walking back and forth in front of an abortion clinic. For almost 15 minutes he lashed out at her accusing her of just about every vile thing imaginable and calling her all kinds of despicable names. In all of that she only one time told him to back off even though he was obviously holding a camera up to her face almost constantly.

That was a form of hate I have seldom seen displayed anywhere and by an elected official in a public place no less. Hate really is an ugly thing and I agree that it needs to be spoken out against regardless who perpetuates it.

[MaxPC]

One recent example i saw on the Internet of hate was of one of your PA government representatives accosting an older women who was quietly walking back and forth in front of an abortion clinic. For almost 15 minutes he lashed out at her accusing her of just about every vile thing imaginable and calling her all kinds of despicable names. In all of that she only one time told him to back off even though he was obviously holding a camera up to her face almost constantly.

That was a form of hate I have seldom seen displayed anywhere and by an elected official in a public place no less. Hate really is an ugly thing and I agree that it needs to be spoken out against regardless who perpetuates it.

Indeed, Bill Sims, Democrat from PA not only verbally abused that poor woman who was praying but he also put out a reward for where she and the girls lived so they could be harassed at their own home: it’s called doxing. He posts photos of himself making obscene gestures too. I have never seen such vicious behavior in my entire life.

[Bootstrap]

Indeed, Bill Sims, Democrat from PA not only verbally abused that poor woman who was praying but he also put out a reward for where she and the girls lived so they could be harassed at their own home: it’s called doxing. He posts photos of himself making obscene gestures too. I have never seen such vicious behavior in my entire life.

This is apparently true, and it is deplorable. Perhaps it would be worthwhile to start a thread on it?

Why is it that people keep minimizing the problem of white nationalism and online extremism or changing the subject? I assume that nobody here supports white nationalism. I assume nobody here believes that white nationalism or racism have anything to do with what is good in conservative values.

It's almost like there's some law that says we must not have compassion for minorities even when they are clearly innocent victims. I don't get it. Surely nobody believes that blacks or Jews are responsible for white nationalist violence.

[MaxPC]

One recent example i saw on the Internet of hate was of one of your PA government representatives accosting an older women who was quietly walking back and forth in front of an abortion clinic. For almost 15 minutes he lashed out at her accusing her of just about every vile thing imaginable and calling her all kinds of despicable names. In all of that she only one time told him to back off even though he was obviously holding a camera up to her face almost constantly.

That was a form of hate I have seldom seen displayed anywhere and by an elected official in a public place no less. Hate really is an ugly thing and I agree that it needs to be spoken out against regardless who perpetuates it.

Indeed, Bill Sims, Democrat from PA not only verbally abused that poor woman who was praying but he also put out a reward for where she and the girls lived so they could be harassed at their own home: it’s called doxing. He posts photos of himself making obscene gestures too. I have never seen such vicious behavior in my entire life.

CORRECTION: His name is Brian Sims. His actions speak louder than all the political rhetoric of virtue signaling. He is a man filled with hate.

[appleman2006]

I will try one more time.

The point I am trying to make is simply that as awful as white nationalism is it is in no way systemic in your country. Is one white nationalist one too many? Of course. It should be rooted and out and dealt with wherever it rears it's ugly head but as i said before almost all instances of it rearing itself openly are cases of people that have some severe mental issues. White nationalism is so deplored in our countries that anyone who openly espouses it is going to be hard pressed to get a decent job. They will be ostracised beyond just about anything else you could do. And that is fine.

So think about this. Is it possible that the issue of white nationalism is actually used as a shield to keep people from talking about much more prevalent forms of hate that people spew out today. Types that actually are becoming systemic. The like of which the elected man above is guilty of. I am totally convinced that some of that is actually taking place.

The proverbial equivalent would be one trying to distract from the real important subject by saying "Look there is a bird".

[Bootstrap]

So think about this. Is it possible that the issue of white nationalism is actually used as a shield to keep people from talking about much more prevalent forms of hate that people spew out today. Types that actually are becoming systemic. The like of which the elected man above is guilty of.

How is that different from the white supremacists that Trump retweets, the trolls who dox people who disagree with Trump on Twitter and issue death threats against them, Charlottesville, Christchurch, etc? Is doxing better when Trump's supporters do it than when Sims does it? It doesn't matter "which side" is doing it worse, what matters is dealing with the problem. Doxing is doxing. Threats are threats. Violence is violence. But let's not be in denial when someone else is the victim.

This stuff really does exist, there's a lot of it, and it's seriously scary stuff. And white nationalist extremism is a big deal. If you have the stomach for it, spend some time on 4chan or 8chan and see what real hatred looks like. Or read the Daily Stormer or Stormfront ... there's lots of this stuff out there, it's not hard to find. But this stuff happens even in normal social media platforms. I think we need things like this:

The terrorist attacks in Christchurch, New Zealand, in March were a horrifying tragedy. And so it is right that we come together, resolute in our commitment to ensure we are doing all we can to fight the hatred and extremism that lead to terrorist violence," the companies said in a joint statement shared in a Facebook press release.

According to the nine-point plan, each company will update its terms of service, create more ways for users to report or flag inappropriate content, invest in technology to detect and remove such content and publish regular transparency reports. The companies will work together to develop crisis protocols, educate the public and provide greater support for research into hate online.

Here's the plan itself:

The Christchurch Call

The proverbial equivalent would be one trying to distract from the real important subject by saying "Look there is a bird".

Indeed.

When it happens to us, we're really sensitive. When it happens to them, we may not be as sensitive. But if we let it happen to them, it will happen to us as well.

[Dan Z]

I will try one more time.

The point I am trying to make is simply that as awful as white nationalism is it is in no way systemic in your country. Is one white nationalist one too many? Of course. It should be rooted and out and dealt with wherever it rears it's ugly head but as i said before almost all instances of it rearing itself openly are cases of people that have some severe mental issues. White nationalism is so deplored in our countries that anyone who openly espouses it is going to be hard pressed to get a decent job. They will be ostracised beyond just about anything else you could do. And that is fine.

So think about this. Is it possible that the issue of white nationalism is actually used as a shield to keep people from talking about much more prevalent forms of hate that people spew out today. Types that actually are becoming systemic. The like of which the elected man above is guilty of. I am totally convinced that some of that is actually taking place.

The proverbial equivalent would be one trying to distract from the real important subject by saying "Look there is a bird".

This makes sense to me Appleman in two ways: 1) While white nationalism is on the rise in the US (and elsewhere), it still seems to be far from the level of "systemic," at least in the US. 2) Political machinery tends to make hay with the ugliest issue in the room - using it to motivate and mobilize power. White nationalism, in all its vitriol, makes a great poster-child for the left to get people riled up - in the same way that the right relates to issues like socialism or gender-identity politics.

That being said, I don't think we can ignore or dismiss the global trend toward white nationalism. I like your perspective that countries should be on guard and "root it out and deal with it wherever it rears its ugly head." While I think it is far from systematic, I do think the white nationalist underground has been growing as immigration affects culture and power, and it has been further emboldened by the demeanor and rhetoric of our current president and other authoritarian-leaning nationalists across Europe.