Not-so-United Methodists

[Bootstrap]

Here's a news article by the Slate Religion reporter who interviewed the pastors involved.

https://slate.com/human-interest/2020/0 ... mbers.html

I sure hope Glenn Beck never decides to start a controversy about any church I attend. I don't think he is careful with facts. I think he likes to stoke outrage. I think people who know little about these churches get caught up spreading rumors about them.

If they had simply closed their doors, would there be any controversy? That has happened to so many aging United Methodist churches. If you want to report on something like this, you really need to carefully interview everyone involved, and if you do that, there's a lot less controversy. Really, we need to reel in the outrage and rumor mongering about this stuff.

Making a local congregation into national news is not going to help them. We don't help these churches or their senior citizens by using them in the predefined outrage narratives surrounding gay marriage. And we don't help conservative Methodist churches by doing that either. We just add more fire to the daily outrage about things we know little about, spreading more rumors and gossip.

I just took at look at the Facebook pages and website for these churches. This does not seem to be motivated by disagreements about gay marriage. These two congregations are both liberal, and the older people who are still there are there because of or despite that. Both campuses are on the progressive side of gay marriage, and have been since at least early 2018, according to their web page. And there just doesn't seem to be a whole lot of outrage on their Facebook pages:

• https://www.facebook.com/TheGroveMN.CottageGrove/
• https://www.facebook.com/TheGroveMN.Woodbury/

Here is a snapshot from February 3, 2018, the earliest snapshot in archive.org:

Come as you are—you’ll be welcomed.
We strive to reflect God’s love to all.

Be who you are—you’ll be celebrated.
We honor the sacred worth and dignity of persons
of every age, race, ethnicity, sexual orientation, gender identity,
physical and mental capacity, education, economic, and marital status.

Explore where you are—we’ll walk alongside you.
We recognize that faith is a journey of trust and transformation,
where beliefs are formed and reformed in community.

[Bootstrap]

I think this means the churches that choose to be part of the new traditionalist Methodist denomination will not need to give up their buildings.

What happens to the property, assets, and liabilities of local churches or conferences which choose to affiliate with a new Methodist denomination pursuant to the Protocol?
A local church that affiliates with a Methodist denomination pursuant to the Protocol other than the post-separation United Methodist Church retains its assets and liabilities. The Annual Conference to which the local church belongs at the time of its separation will not exercise its trust clause and shall release such a local church from the provisions of any and all trust clauses. https://www.unitedmethodistbishops.org/ ... m-13133711

For MC-USA, I think it would be really helpful to have this kind of clarity. Currently, we have congregations deciding which conference to join based on their stance on gay marriage, with congregations choosing to belong to conferences that are not in their geographical region, with neighboring churches belonging to conferences in completely different regions.

I don't think it's really feasible to have one denomination that takes more than one stance on gay marriage. I think we would be better off simply facing that fact. The United Methodist Church did that. To me, that makes the conservative Methodist congregations and their newly forming denomination very attractive. I would like to see the same kind of conservative denomination for Mennonites who are not plain but are biblicists, that's where I would like to be.

I don't think this should be done in a spirit of outrage and enmity. But there are people in church leadership positions who believe things that I find completely unbiblical, and I do want to be part of a church that follows biblical teaching.

[temporal1]

i failed to add, this post from HK was from JAN 2019. (Now a year ago.)

Page 2:

A reminder to be in prayer for the upcoming United Methodist General Conference in February. [2019]

My uncle is a pastor in the UMC in Southwestern PA; at Christmastime there were hushed and consternated conversations between some of the aunts and uncles about which way the Conference would go: One Church Plan or Traditional Plan.

I know [most] of us have few if any ties to the UMC and so it may seem inconsequential to us.

I suggest though that the UMC, as the last of the Mainline Churches to hold out on full-inclusion of LGBTQ+ congregants, still has real cultural clout in certain regions of the country.

If yet another institution is knocked over by the steamroller of LGBTQ+ celebration, the ripple effects will definitely be felt.

The Institute on Religion & Democracy has been tirelessly covering the lead-up to Conference.

If you want some eye-opening insight into the stratagems of the LGBTQ+ lobby and how it has been so effortlessly deployed in institutions as disparate as the APA, New York Times, MCUSA, MCC, EMU & the New York City Penal Code;
read the following article
and be sure to click the attendant links.

My principle interest in the Methodist church situation is reading HK’s insights.
i have no plans to attend or join a Methodist church, altho, i’m sorry to say that.
.. .. ..

it might have been more dignified for all to let the small church die a natural death, the others could have started what they wanted without traumatizing this small group.

“a death is easier than a divorce.”

(i think) the discussion that’s going on is a direct result of the internet.
prior to the internet, church leaders would make decisions, official words would be recorded, that was that - to a great extent.

but, it was never 100%.
church members, and outsiders, would talk (plenty!) - it just wasn’t as openly known.
church members would “vote with their feet,” churches would live+die without public discourse.
i.e., not as the internet allows!

There are pros+cons.
The internet now allows pastors and priests to see in broad daylight response to their decisions.
Unlike MD/MN, prior to the internet, most people were both respectful, and afraid, of church leadership.

Before the internet, there was always a communication gap between leadership and laity.

One of the things that drew me to MD was, here is this uniquely democratic forum where ALL sorts of people discuss ALL matters, in an informal way, many never saying if they were pastor, housewife, laborer, scholar, or any other sort of label, that might surely make a big difference, in real life.

(i thought) how amazing for pastors and other leaders to read, first hand, in real time, what people are really thinking and discussing! and, vice-versa. because, people always did think and discuss.
the internet changes access.

HK’s insights on the Methodist church struggles are helpful.

Poor reading comprehension skills may be the central cause of misunderstandings on the internet.
i’m not a good reader. i have to try hard. i try.

IF ONLY churches could be judged by their labels, or church buildings! How much simpler.
Methodists have many appealing church buildings.

[Bootstrap]

(i think) the discussion that’s going on is a direct result of the internet.
prior to the internet, church leaders would make decisions, official words would be recorded, that was that - to a great extent.

but, it is never 100%.
church members, and outsiders, would talk (plenty!) - it just wasn’t as openly known.
church members would “vote with their feet,” churches would live+die without public discourse.
i.e., not as the internet allows!

I really think it's great when the people who actually know what is going on make their decisions without having to play to a national audience. I hope none of our congregations ever land in that position. And it's clear that some of the reporting on this has been irresponsible and aimed at drumming up outrage without carefully interviewing all the people involved or getting a deep understanding of the congregations.

And we cannot blame the Internet if we decide to meddle in things we know nothing about.

In general, I think we do best when we wrestle with the best ways for us, as Christians, to live out our faith. I think we generally do badly criticizing churches we are not closely involved in and know little about.

Gossip is not a Christian virtue.

[temporal1]

i did not invent the internet, neither did you.
you use it much more than (most, i guess).

my words were to observe reality as i see it, not to lay blame (on the internet).

you often chide others regarding their gossip. and their Christian virtues.

i don’t do that.
mostly, i understand people to be authentic and sincere, seeking answers and a better path.

[ohio jones]

And we cannot blame the Internet if we decide to meddle in things we know nothing about.

This is very true.

The internet does make it much easier for us to meddle, though, if we are so inclined. And it makes it easier for those who want to peddle to the meddle.

[Josh]

Boot,

How do you feel about the CMC or Lancaster Conference? I feel you’d be aligned perfectly with the LC.

[ohio jones]

I would like to see the same kind of conservative denomination for Mennonites who are not plain but are biblicists, that's where I would like to be.

That might also describe Evana.

[Bootstrap]

Boot,

How do you feel about the CMC or Lancaster Conference? I feel you’d be aligned perfectly with the LC.

Either would seem reasonable, except that they aren't here where I live.

[HondurasKeiser]

The UMC Bishops have kicked the "Protocol of Reconciliation and Grace Through Separation" decision, scheduled for this year, to 2024. Many of the conservative congregations and their delegates, so instrumental in passing the "Traditional Plan" back in 2019, have had enough and have announced they're leaving as soon as this May. My grandmother attends a conservative-leaning congregation in Williamsport and my uncle is a minister at a decidedly conservative congregation near Altoona. I am curious about what their respective responses will be.

Last week, the Commission on General Conference announced it was postponing the meeting again — this time to 2024. Though COVID-19 numbers have dropped in the United States, the commission said, delegates living outside the country are having trouble getting visas to travel to the in-person gathering.

For all this time, United Methodist leaders — right, left and center — have held their collective breath. Leaders of the theologically diverse groups that negotiated the protocol urged their members to remain in the denomination. Conservatives agreed to suspend trials against clergy who are LGBTQ or who perform same-sex weddings.

For those conservatives, last week’s postponement was too much.

“We’re encouraging those who can find a pathway that is appropriate for them to go ahead and exit the denomination,” said the Rev. Keith Boyette, who leads the Transitional Leadership Council that is guiding the creation of the Global Methodist Church, the new conservative denomination.

RNS