ken_sylvania wrote:I like to think of formal education as "Learning how to learn." Even a good eight grade education when combined with easy access to good reading material can put a person well on the way to a well rounded education. I'm not college educated, but I enjoy reading, learning, and thinking.
There are times I wish I would have taken the time for further formal education, but at the same time I'm aware that would have interfered with the on-the-job experience I've gotten.
You certainly come across as educated.
I have known two people well who were very educated, but had only an 8th grade education. One was my grandmother, a voracious reader who loved talking things out with people who did not all agree. Another is an old black woman who was a pastor for many years, and is particularly educated about the Bible, which she knows only in the King James. She knows how to put that Bible to very good use, applying it accurately in wisdom, and she has definitely taught me a lot. So I agree with you, and know people who prove your point.
One thing to keep in mind is that for example the Rod and Staff English that my wife teaches our children has stuff in it that she never seen even in college... She has been saying this since our oldest has been in grade 2...
And I have met many Mennonites raised with only grade 8 education that use and say words that I can't even pronounce, much less know what they mean... I have a grade 12 education, with some "college" or trade school.
I am very convinced that most that receive a grade 8 education with a Mennonite curriculum are actually much more academically equipped than most anyone completing to grade 12 public school and even lots that have a college education.
Wade wrote:One thing to keep in mind is that for example the Rod and Staff English that my wife teaches our children has stuff in it that she never seen even in college... She has been saying this since our oldest has been in grade 2...
And I have met many Mennonites raised with only grade 8 education that use and say words that I can't even pronounce, much less know what they mean... I have a grade 12 education, with some "college" or trade school.
I am very convinced that most that receive a grade 8 education with a Mennonite curriculum are actually much more academically equipped than most anyone completing to grade 12 public school and even lots that have a college education.
I haven't looked at these materials. What kinds of things are you thinking of?
Public schools are all over the map. My son took as much math in high school as I ever got in college, and his history classes were definitely college level. When he went to college, at a good college, he said the classes just weren't that hard. My high school was a rural county high school with few good teachers that just wasn't at that level. My first year of college just about killed me. I had never learned how to study, and had very little background in many important subjects.
I wish we had equally good schools everywhere ...
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Is it biblical? Is it Christlike? Is it loving? Is it true? How can I find out?
When I was in high school I noticed that the teachers and counselors really pushed kids into going to college. I have a learning disability so I've struggled through school my entire life and due to that I never liked school because it was so hard for me. I took all the shop classes in high school, auto, metal, wood, and agriculture. I loved working with my hands and it was the only thing I was really good at in school. The teachers and counselors tried to make me take more "academic" classes that would "help me in life", but I wasn't interested in taking their college prep classes. After high school my parents pushed me into going to junior college. I agreed that I would take a class or two while I worked. Working full time and taking a class or two was a full schedule, but I kept it up and was slowly working towards a degree in Agriculture Science. After a few years I realized that it was going to take me a long time to get a degree just taking 1 or 2 classes here and there and I got discouraged and quit for about a year. I was happy at the time because I hated school, but then I thought about all the time I had "wasted" on it and I got to thinking maybe I would regret never finishing it later on in life. I talked to my parents and I told them I want to finish school but the only way I could do that is if I cut back my hours working and go to school full time. They agreed that I should and that's when I started going to school full time. I still struggled and it was tough for me, but I realized that if I explain my situation to the teacher, show them I'm trying my hardest to learn, that in return they would see that and help me pass the class despite low test scores. Leading up to now, I'm still in college and after this semester is over in a few weeks, I will only have 2 more classes left to get my degree in Agriculture Science. I'm very happy that I've stuck with it now, but if I had a choice to do it all over again, I probably wouldn't of gone to college in the first place and here's why..
Working in the agriculture field, I've learned a lot over the years by being taught on the job. So far going to school I've learned nothing that would be any use to me in the real world of agriculture. Reading textbooks, listening to lectures, and wiring papers on Agriculture does me no good, especially when most of the content is quite liberal and anti agriculture in a way. Most colleges, even Mennonite ones, are quite liberal to say the least. Doesn't matter what subject you take, they're going to push their agenda on you. College is great for people that want to be doctors, teachers, or anything else like that, but honestly most jobs could provide on the job training that would be much more useful in the long run. I feel like a lot of employers that list a degree needed in job descriptions are using it in the same way as a job history, they just want to see that you can dedicate yourself to completing something that takes a long time. Earning a degree doesn't guarantee you a job, and putting yourself into debt for it is not something I would recommend for anyone unless they really have to (doctors, teachers, those kinds of jobs).
For those of you with kids, teach them to pursue their dreams and support them in whatever they want to do. If they want to go to college and be a doctor, support them. If they want to go to a trade school to learn to be a mechanic, support them. If they want to be a garbage man, support them. The world is full of a lot of people, everyone can't go to college and do the same jobs. Every job is important and we need people to fill all of those jobs, even the ones that most people wouldn't want to do. Success isn't about the money, your social class, or anything like that. It's about finding your happiness. Personally I would rather do something that makes me happy and I enjoy doing so it doesn't feel like work. If you hate what you do then you're going to be miserable in life.
Something I noticed lately is a lot of "entry level" jobs want degrees and experience. So how is someone supposed to get experience for a entry level job if the job requires experience. That's what I want to know.
Bootstrap wrote:Lately, there's been a lot of reporting on how the media is out of touch with people who do not have college education. I am also hearing some people express hostility toward college educated people.
What are the advantages and disadvantages of a college education? Is it something we should avoid completely, or a calling for some but not for others? If some have a college education and others do not, how can we avoid letting college education become a divide in the Kingdom?
Is education different from other gifts that God gives to build the body?
Because of our traditional lack of higher education, our people have been left out of in many fields. This is unfortunate because I believe these are becoming fields that could benefit from having professionals that love the Lord, that operate honestly. Sure we may influence and talk to some these people outside their industry, but many people primarily operate within their industry. The workplace has people we see everyday are the ones with whom we build relationships with and talk with regularly, and frankly.
A lot of these industries and jobs pay well. I believe our lack of access to these jobs and our need for a living wage is a factor that has forced many of us into becoming businessmen, or labors. Nothing wrong with either, but how does it affect our church dynamics when there is such an income gap between the wage earners and business owners? Seems like it would be nice to have some people working high income jobs, to be in that economic space between the others.
Seems like these jobs could have a bridging affect, a benefit, instead of the education being a divide. While I have not seen businessmen wield power like I have heard of, I have been in mens meetings where it seems like the poorer brother feels like being quiet if his thought counters his employers.
At this time I would not support the idea that our people should customarily get an college education. But if someone has a clear vision and goal, then by all means go for it - in consultation with the church people. Because if it is some unstable person who flits from one half baked vision and goal to another, never actually accomplishing anything, the church people should discourage such a person from embarking on such an expensive and time consuming undertaking.
When I choose my career path I was not a Christian and had things like money and prestige in mind.
A while after becoming a Christian I despised the path I took somewhat because I knew my heart was in the wrong place when I did.
Well, I am still in the same field of work despite efforts to change and the Lord has shown to me that one needs to be faithful where one is. And conversion and separation doesn't necessarily mean every thing in life will have to change - although motives certainly will.
Now I am working among many without Christ and somewhat displaced, but just last week I had two self-proclaiming atheist's tell me that they are considering Christ. Imagine if I had my way and wasn't where I am and these men had no one to talk these things over with... I love how God works!
Bootstrap wrote:So how do you measure learning versus indoctrination? Can we come up with a definition that applies here on MN too, not just in the university? What promotes the healthy kind of critical thinking? What shuts it down?
This is an excellent question, very hard to answer. I think real learning means being able to answer "why?". This means being able to explain why you believe what you learned is true (or false).
In math, many learn to solve problems using formulas. They have no idea why these formulas are true. These people are learning to obey orders uncritically. They will make obedient employees or nazis or whatever position they find themselves in. And this is what I believe most university "education" is about, learning to be uncritically obedient. Of course this makes it very easy to indoctrinate these people into whatever the prevailing ideology of the day is, which college does in the relevant subjects.
I was a math major and I never learned any formulas. When I saw a formula, I figured out why it is true, and then there was no more need for the formula because I could simply apply this reasoning to any problem. No one else seemed to follow this approach. To the professors, I was some kind of a monster because I could solve any problem without following the procedures being taught.
I went to a top university and I consider "college education" to be a contradiction in terms. The old classical education, now mostly extinct, was a true education. College today would be better called "college training" or more specifically "college obedience training".
If you have an independent mind, college will only cause you suffering (as it did to me). And if you don't have an independent mind, better to let your mind follow an old proven path like traditional Christianity than to follow the random fashion of the day.
Franklin wrote: This is an excellent question, very hard to answer. I think real learning means being able to answer "why?". This means being able to explain why you believe what you learned is true (or false).
In math, many learn to solve problems using formulas. They have no idea why these formulas are true. These people are learning to obey orders uncritically. They will make obedient employees or nazis or whatever position they find themselves in. And this is what I believe most university "education" is about, learning to be uncritically obedient. Of course this makes it very easy to indoctrinate these people into whatever the prevailing ideology of the day is, which college does in the relevant subjects.
I was a math major and I never learned any formulas. When I saw a formula, I figured out why it is true, and then there was no more need for the formula because I could simply apply this reasoning to any problem. No one else seemed to follow this approach.
To the professors, I was some kind of a monster because I could solve any problem without following the procedures being taught.
I went to a top university and I consider "college education" to be a contradiction in terms.
The old classical education, now mostly extinct, was a true education.
College today would be better called "college training" or more specifically "college obedience training".
If you have an independent mind, college will only cause you suffering (as it did to me).
And if you don't have an independent mind, better to let your mind follow an old proven path like traditional Christianity than to follow the random fashion of the day.
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Most or all of this drama, humiliation, wasted taxpayer money could be spared -
with even modest attempt at presenting balanced facts from the start.
we chose this verse to be printed on our son's university graduation announcement, it comforts me when i think of the purpose of higher edcation: http://biblehub.com/isaiah/55-11.htm
Isaiah 55:11
…10"For as the rain and the snow come down from heaven,
And do not return there without watering the earth And making it bear and sprout,
And furnishing seed to the sower and bread to the eater;
11So will My word be which goes forth from My mouth; It will not return to Me empty,
Without accomplishing what I desire,
And without succeeding in the matter for which I sent it.
12"For you will go out with joy And be led forth with peace;
The mountains and the hills will break forth into shouts of joy before you,
And all the trees of the field will clap their hands.…
.. when this is the result, the results are good/godly.
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Most or all of this drama, humiliation, wasted taxpayer money could be spared -
with even modest attempt at presenting balanced facts from the start.
College education in 2016 mostly consists of being brainwashed to think like a liberal: learning about Safe Spaces, why orthodox Christianity can't possibly be correct, and why white, heterosexual cisgendered men (especially those terrible non-college-educated white msn who voted for Trump) are the root of all evil in the world.
I think education is valuable, but I don't think the above education is of any value at all.
Josh wrote:College education in 2016 mostly consists of being brainwashed to think like a liberal: learning about Safe Spaces, why orthodox Christianity can't possibly be correct, and why white, heterosexual cisgendered men (especially those terrible non-college-educated white msn who voted for Trump) are the root of all evil in the world.
I think education is valuable, but I don't think the above education is of any value at all.
Like Boot pointed out, I don't have a college degree. The only times I have been on a campus, other than to arrange for witnessing opportunities, was to use the library.
So maybe I'm totally out of date or mistaken. But I thought colleges were geared more for the practical end of things. For instance, someone apprenticing for a plumber or electrician, or journeyman carpenter has to take a certain number of six week college courses during their apprenticeship (this is in Canada). There are longer courses, like the one to become a Certified Crop Advisor -- I think this is a two year course.
There are practical courses in university as well. So isn't it more what you choose to take?
My other question is, What really is meant by critical thinking, and how is it taught? Maybe that would be an interesting thread in itself.
And if you don't have an independent mind, better to let your mind follow an old proven path like traditional Christianity than to follow the random fashion of the day. 