College Education: "us" versus "them"

Events occurring and how they relate/affect Anabaptist faith and culture.
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KingdomBuilder
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Re: College Education: "us" versus "them"

Post by KingdomBuilder »

Josh wrote:College education in 2016 mostly consists of being brainwashed to think like a liberal: learning about Safe Spaces, why orthodox Christianity can't possibly be correct, and why white, heterosexual cisgendered men (especially those terrible non-college-educated white msn who voted for Trump) are the root of all evil in the world.

I think education is valuable, but I don't think the above education is of any value at all.
I think a lot of this depends on your program of study. If you're a humanities major, clearly the above will really apply. If you're a more "concrete" major, you'll have a hard time finding liberal-brainwashing.
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Bootstrap
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Re: College Education: "us" versus "them"

Post by Bootstrap »

KingdomBuilder wrote:I think a lot of this depends on your program of study. If you're a humanities major, clearly the above will really apply. If you're a more "concrete" major, you'll have a hard time finding liberal-brainwashing.
I think you'll find some variety even in the humanities. Gender studies is largely liberal brainwashing at most colleges - and so is religion at most secular universities and even some church schools. I went to a state college, signed up for a New Testament overview class, and was appalled.

English literature, Classics, Philosophy, etc. is another story.
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Bootstrap
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Re: College Education: "us" versus "them"

Post by Bootstrap »

In this thread, it's pretty clear that education and critical thinking are only one thing that a college education does, and some people graduate without actually learning those skills. I think a college education can be useful for many jobs, I also think that it's really useful to have some educated people in the church who have learned the skills of critical thinking, but that's not everyone's gift or calling.

College also has other effects:
  • It exposes people to the culture of mainstream educated Americans - and often sucks them into that culture, with all its virtues and faults. On balance, I suspect this culture is no better or worse than various other American cultures, but it clearly is different. For most plain churches, I suspect that anyone getting a college degree is going to have to wrestle with culture shock.
  • It conveys status. People without a college degree are sometimes treated as lesser. This is just plain wrong, and we need to stand against this in our churches.
  • It helps you get a job. In some fields, this makes sense. Many employers treat a college degree as a proof of maturity, and are reluctant to hire someone without one, even in fields where college education is irrelevant. That's a major problem for some people who have difficulty finding good jobs. I often wonder if Kingdom Christians could do more to provide meaningful employment for people without college degrees, and especially people with prison records.
  • It often gives you a lot of debt. That's a real issue.
None of the things in that list are really the same thing as getting an education. The Wizard of Oz has a wonderful scene that points this out.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2pWSwfVDiq8
Wizard
Why, anybody can have a brain. That's a very mediocre commodity.
Every pusillanimous creature that crawls on the earth,
or slinks through slimy seas has a brain! Back where I come from we
have universities - seats of great learning - where men
go to become great thinkers. And when they come out, they think deep
thoughts, and with no more brains than you have.
But - they have one thing you haven't got - a diploma!
Therefore, by virtue of the authority vested in me by the Universita Committeeatum E Pluribus Unum,
I hereby confer upon you the honorary degree of Th.D.
Scarecrow
Th.D.?
Wizard
Yeah - that - that's Dr. of Thinkology
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Wade
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Re: College Education: "us" versus "them"

Post by Wade »

Bootstrap wrote:In this thread, it's pretty clear that education and critical thinking are only one thing that a college education does, and some people graduate without actually learning those skills. I think a college education can be useful for many jobs, I also think that it's really useful to have some educated people in the church who have learned the skills of critical thinking, but that's not everyone's gift or calling.

College also has other effects:
  • It exposes people to the culture of mainstream educated Americans - and often sucks them into that culture, with all its virtues and faults. On balance, I suspect this culture is no better or worse than various other American cultures, but it clearly is different. For most plain churches, I suspect that anyone getting a college degree is going to have to wrestle with culture shock.
  • It conveys status. People without a college degree are sometimes treated as lesser. This is just plain wrong, and we need to stand against this in our churches.
  • It helps you get a job. In some fields, this makes sense. Many employers treat a college degree as a proof of maturity, and are reluctant to hire someone without one, even in fields where college education is irrelevant. That's a major problem for some people who have difficulty finding good jobs. I often wonder if Kingdom Christians could do more to provide meaningful employment for people without college degrees, and especially people with prison records.
  • It often gives you a lot of debt. That's a real issue.
None of the things in that list are really the same thing as getting an education. The Wizard of Oz has a wonderful scene that points this out.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2pWSwfVDiq8
Wizard
Why, anybody can have a brain. That's a very mediocre commodity.
Every pusillanimous creature that crawls on the earth,
or slinks through slimy seas has a brain! Back where I come from we
have universities - seats of great learning - where men
go to become great thinkers. And when they come out, they think deep
thoughts, and with no more brains than you have.
But - they have one thing you haven't got - a diploma!
Therefore, by virtue of the authority vested in me by the Universita Committeeatum E Pluribus Unum,
I hereby confer upon you the honorary degree of Th.D.
Scarecrow
Th.D.?
Wizard
Yeah - that - that's Dr. of Thinkology
I wouldn't believe that Wizard. Jellyfish don't have brains! :D
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Judas Maccabeus
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Re: College Education: "us" versus "them"

Post by Judas Maccabeus »

lesterb wrote:We're having a winter Bible school, and the one preacher is focusing on creation principles. Last night he spoke about work. It was very obvious that in his mind work means manual labor. For instance, he belittled a man who made a statement about his hands not being made for manual labor. He even said that such a person shouldn't be allowed to have anything to eat until he's dug a 400 ft ditch by hand.

Now maybe I'm too touchy on this subject. But I have never, in my adult life, made a living by doing manual labor. I've taught school, I've worked as a writer and editor, I've been on a corporate management team, etc. If I had to dig a 400 ft ditch, I'd need an appointment with an undertaker, I suspect.

I must admit that I'm more than a little tired of such sentiments. I've faced them all my life, and I'm sick of preachers and others who think that teaching or doing desk work isn't work. I've gotten my education by the sweat of my brow, figuratively if not literally, and I'd like to see some of these people cope with some of the things I've had to do in my life.

I'd also add that I don't think that most of the people in our congregation would look down on me for my work history. But I've been in churches where that was the case. I think some people are called to careers where education is very helpful, and some aren't. But most people should at least have high school. And once they are mature enough to handle it and know what direction they want to take in life, a couple years of college is pretty helpful. I'm not so keen on a liberal arts university degree. But most college courses tend to deal with the practical side of life.
I have had a university education, and since getting out of college, have never done what would be called manual work. There are days I would gladly exchange the physical exhaustion of work for the stress (Mental and emotional) that I have every day. I an in healthcare.

J.M.
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lesterb
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Re: College Education: "us" versus "them"

Post by lesterb »

Judas Maccabeus wrote:
lesterb wrote:We're having a winter Bible school, and the one preacher is focusing on creation principles. Last night he spoke about work. It was very obvious that in his mind work means manual labor. For instance, he belittled a man who made a statement about his hands not being made for manual labor. He even said that such a person shouldn't be allowed to have anything to eat until he's dug a 400 ft ditch by hand.

Now maybe I'm too touchy on this subject. But I have never, in my adult life, made a living by doing manual labor. I've taught school, I've worked as a writer and editor, I've been on a corporate management team, etc. If I had to dig a 400 ft ditch, I'd need an appointment with an undertaker, I suspect.

I must admit that I'm more than a little tired of such sentiments. I've faced them all my life, and I'm sick of preachers and others who think that teaching or doing desk work isn't work. I've gotten my education by the sweat of my brow, figuratively if not literally, and I'd like to see some of these people cope with some of the things I've had to do in my life.

I'd also add that I don't think that most of the people in our congregation would look down on me for my work history. But I've been in churches where that was the case. I think some people are called to careers where education is very helpful, and some aren't. But most people should at least have high school. And once they are mature enough to handle it and know what direction they want to take in life, a couple years of college is pretty helpful. I'm not so keen on a liberal arts university degree. But most college courses tend to deal with the practical side of life.
I have had a university education, and since getting out of college, have never done what would be called manual work. There are days I would gladly exchange the physical exhaustion of work for the stress (Mental and emotional) that I have every day. I an in healthcare.

J.M.
I've gotten a better impression of this preacher as the week went on. He probably didn't mean this quite the way I took it. I didn't bother asking him.

I know what you mean JM. I've never had the kind of stress you have but I've had enough to know the feeling.
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Re: College Education: "us" versus "them"

Post by Josh »

cmbl wrote: This depends heavily on the field of study. In my experience, engineering education is nearly or completely devoid of
Josh wrote: being brainwashed to think like a liberal: learning about Safe Spaces, why orthodox Christianity can't possibly be correct, and why white, heterosexual cisgendered men (especially those terrible non-college-educated white msn who voted for Trump) are the root of all evil in the world.
If you check the course catalogue for the university I posted, the courses required apply to all majors, including their schools of engineering, C.S., and nursing. Chasing STEM type of majors at a typical college or university is no longer a respite from this sort of thing.
The vast majority of CA's would not go/send their children to college. Of those that do, I've only ever heard of engineers, doctors and nurses. I think that if one goes, it's wise to stick to these fields (or similar) both for (1) lack of aforementioned "brainwashing" and (2) actually getting a return on investment. Should college be more than job training for technical fields? Maybe. But not at today's prices.
It would seem practical to me for wise men and women in their 40s and 50s, families grown, with life experience and a solid, multi-generational perspective, to go to universities or college and be capable of learning in a hostile environment. Unfortunately, I don't think college is a good path for someone who is 17 or 18 to go down right now. Perhaps that will change. I think things like V.S., Faith Builders, or teaching school are much better paths to go down.
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Re: College Education: "us" versus "them"

Post by lesterb »

Josh wrote: It would seem practical to me for wise men and women in their 40s and 50s, families grown, with life experience and a solid, multi-generational perspective, to go to universities or college and be capable of learning in a hostile environment. Unfortunately, I don't think college is a good path for someone who is 17 or 18 to go down right now. Perhaps that will change. I think things like V.S., Faith Builders, or teaching school are much better paths to go down.
I'd pretty well agree with this.

In my own experience, I'd say that five years of teaching did a lot for me. In fact, I'd say it was foundational for much of what I've done since then. Maybe a university degree would have done more for me -- ie, given me a more rounded education. But this way I learned what I really needed to know. More important, I learned how to learn what I needed to know.

I'm not sure if I ever said it here, but I only had a tenth grade formal education. Anything else was from the school of hard knocks. But if you check my LinkedIn account, you will see that I skip the education section.
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cmbl
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Re: College Education: "us" versus "them"

Post by cmbl »

Josh wrote:
cmbl wrote: This depends heavily on the field of study. In my experience, engineering education is nearly or completely devoid of
Josh wrote: being brainwashed to think like a liberal: learning about Safe Spaces, why orthodox Christianity can't possibly be correct, and why white, heterosexual cisgendered men (especially those terrible non-college-educated white msn who voted for Trump) are the root of all evil in the world.
If you check the course catalogue for the university I posted, the courses required apply to all majors, including their schools of engineering, C.S., and nursing. Chasing STEM type of majors at a typical college or university is no longer a respite from this sort of thing.
According to pages 302 and 303, the mechanical engineering major is 147 semester units. Thirty of those, or 20.4%, are in the "core curriculum." Importantly, another 33 credits, the "Mathematics and Basic Science requirements," are used in place of what would be in the "core curriculum" for liberal arts majors. These math requirements are Calc I, II, and III, an applied math course, and a probability and statistics course.

The liberal arts majors would be in the 40-50% range. The mechanical engineers are at 20%.
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Re: College Education: "us" versus "them"

Post by cmbl »

Josh wrote: Unfortunately, I don't think college is a good path for someone who is 17 or 18 to go down right now. Perhaps that will change. I think things like V.S., Faith Builders, or teaching school are much better paths to go down.
Issues of engineering credit allocation notwithstanding, I am pretty much in agreement here as well. The big push for Mennonites to get degrees didn't bear good fruit the first time around. I'm not interested in another.
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