About face! - Evangelicals and public morality

Events occurring and how they relate/affect Anabaptist faith and culture.
KingdomBuilder
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Re: About face! - Evangelicals and public morality

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I think Jazman is nailing it on this thread
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Bootstrap
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Re: About face! - Evangelicals and public morality

Post by Bootstrap »

Jazman wrote:... I mean this moral-character-in-our-leaders has been a rock, at least verbally, for 30-50yrs and now suddenly it's not! Frankly I can't think of too many political/cultural/religious entities that have done something like that in such a short space of time...can you?
Yes. Gay marriage.
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mike
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Re: About face! - Evangelicals and public morality

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Bootstrap wrote:
Jazman wrote:... I mean this moral-character-in-our-leaders has been a rock, at least verbally, for 30-50yrs and now suddenly it's not! Frankly I can't think of too many political/cultural/religious entities that have done something like that in such a short space of time...can you?
Yes. Gay marriage.
Just like the Democrats went from DOMA to its repeal in 17 years, I expect those Republicans who aren't already so to become supportive of gay marriage eventually at least as a matter of public policy. Trump welcomed LGBTs into the party officially in his acceptance speech at the convention. It is amazing how many evangelicals ignore this issue in their support of Trump.
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Jazman
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Re: About face! - Evangelicals and public morality

Post by Jazman »

mike wrote:Just like the Democrats went from DOMA to its repeal in 17 years, I expect those Republicans who aren't already so to become supportive of gay marriage eventually at least as a matter of public policy. Trump welcomed LGBTs into the party officially in his acceptance speech at the convention. It is amazing how many evangelicals ignore this issue in their support of Trump.
Point taken, although 17yrs is a good bit longer than 1-2yrs... Were Dems as solidly, at least verbally, pro-family even before DOMA - in comparison to the religious right's emphasis on leaders'-moral-character? I think the examples you brought are close to equivalents and maybe some stats from the past would show a good equivalence...
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mike
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Re: About face! - Evangelicals and public morality

Post by mike »

Jazman wrote:Were Dems as solidly, at least verbally, pro-family even before DOMA - in comparison to the religious right's emphasis on leaders'-moral-character?
I doubt it. I don't think that DOMA meant the Dems were really against gay marriage anyway. More to do with political pressures at the time, and possibly heading off what they thought might be something worse from the Republicans. It is hard to believe that, according the article linked in the previous sentence, in 1996 only 30% of people in California were in favor of allowing homosexual unions. How things have changed.

*edited to add:

Interestingly, after signing DOMA early on a Saturday morning to avoid news coverage, Clinton then proceeded to run ads on Christian radio stations promoting his act, clearly currying favor with evangelical voters just 20 days before the election.

http://www.nytimes.com/1996/10/15/us/ad ... riage.html
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Josh
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Re: About face! - Evangelicals and public morality

Post by Josh »

Jazman wrote:
mike wrote:Just like the Democrats went from DOMA to its repeal in 17 years, I expect those Republicans who aren't already so to become supportive of gay marriage eventually at least as a matter of public policy. Trump welcomed LGBTs into the party officially in his acceptance speech at the convention. It is amazing how many evangelicals ignore this issue in their support of Trump.
Point taken, although 17yrs is a good bit longer than 1-2yrs... Were Dems as solidly, at least verbally, pro-family even before DOMA - in comparison to the religious right's emphasis on leaders'-moral-character? I think the examples you brought are close to equivalents and maybe some stats from the past would show a good equivalence...
Trump decided to run strictly on economics and non moral national policy and stayed entirely out of culture war issues like gay marriage and abortion.

However, to hear the left talk about his choice of VP and Attorney General, he is the most anti gay and anti abortion President ever.
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Jazman
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Re: About face! - Evangelicals and public morality

Post by Jazman »

KingdomBuilder wrote:I think Jazman is nailing it on this thread
I'm not sure it's nailing it... more like venting it. There's not a lot of places I have to freely verbalize the frustration I'm having with general american protestant evangelicalism... which is the majority of what surrounds me at work, family and church: (despite claiming "anabaptist", our little LMC church has been and continues to be more white, suburban american protestant evangelical than anything else and this is especially true when it comes to religion/culture/politics).
I naively thought this election would be the chance for people to break free from the hold that a political party has on them, and I thought some of trump's lowest gutter dives would do it... I had hopes that some serious soul searching would happen. But not much of that has happened and we carry on in what appears to be blissful ignorance of the long term ramifications of staying in the tight grip of one political party, no matter what that party does or allows itself to do for political expediency.

I know there are many american christians, protestants, evangelicals who don't fall into the group that's frustrating me (some polls studies seem to show that the clergy is less entangled...; one of our youngish ministers publicly let it be known that he didn't vote - and considering his work situation, I'm glad he didn't. If he had walked into the place he works on Nov 9 and even quietly admitted he'd voted for Trump, his slow and patiently built up Christian witness would have ended in a moment...forever.
But that point seems to be lost on many...who seem to have no comprehension of the Bad-News message/witness they're sending out to neighbors/youth/the world because of the political platform and party they are hooked to...
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Re: About face! - Evangelicals and public morality

Post by Bootstrap »

As Russell Moore points out, the most important issue is this: will the church seek first the Kingdom of God, or are we loyal lapdogs to some political party or political agenda?
The most important lesson we should learn is that the church must stand against the way politics has become a religion, and religion has become politics. We can hear this idolatrous pull even in the apocalyptic language used by many in this election—as we have seen in every election in recent years—that this election is our “last chance.” And we can hear it in those who assume that the sort of global upending we see happening in the world—in Europe, in the Middle East, and now in the United States—mean a cataclysm before which we should panic.

Such talk is not worthy of a church that is already triumphant in heaven, and is marching on earth toward the ultimate victory of Jesus Christ. Will we face difficult days ahead? Yes. The religious liberty concerns will continue. The cultural decline we have warned against is now part of every ideological coalition in the country. But the question we must ask is who “we” are.

We are not, first, Republicans or Democrats, conservatives or progressives. We are not even, first of all, the United States of America. We are the church of the resurrected and triumphant Lord Jesus Christ. We have survived everything from the rage of Nero to that of Middle Eastern terrorist cells. We have, in fact, often done best when we are, what one historian calls, the “patient ferment” of a church alive with the gospel.
We can pray and honor our leaders, work with them when we can, while preparing to oppose them when needed. We do not need the influence that comes from being a political bloc. We have more than influence; we have power—the power that comes through the weakness of the crucified.

Our rallying cry is not “Hail to the Chief” but “Jesus is Lord.” Perhaps this electoral shakeup means that President Trump will lead America to be great again. I hope so. But regardless, whatever happens to America, we must seek the Kingdom first again.
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Josh
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Re: About face! - Evangelicals and public morality

Post by Josh »

Good point, Boot. It's become obvious to me the progressive Anabaptist wing is utterly beholden to one party and agenda and can't see life any other way.

The evangelical Anabaptist wing is doing the same thing, just with a different party and agenda.

It's probably the biggest reason I'm stuck casting my lot in with conservatives. There isn't much anywhere else to go where lack of sworn allegiance to one ideology or another is perceived as "not following Jesus" (to quote someone on MennoNerds recently).
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