Investigations and the Rule of Law

Events occurring and how they relate/affect Anabaptist faith and culture.
User avatar
Bootstrap
Posts: 14445
Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2016 9:59 am
Affiliation: Mennonite

Investigations and the Rule of Law

Post by Bootstrap »

Wayne asked this in another thread:
Wayne in Maine wrote:
Dan Z wrote:Partisan instincts on either side want to predispose the results. Non-partisans and moderates see the accusations of collusion and the Muller process as reasonably credible- and are content to wait for the results before passing judgement.
I'm curious about what you base this statement on.

In light of events during the Obama Administration (The IRS "Tea Party" scandal) and Hillary Clinton's tenure as secretary of state (Benghazi, Clinton Foundation, Uranium One) do these same "non-partisans and moderates" also see accusations of active FBI/DOJ bias and the investigations of House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence as credible?
If you agree that these other things should have been investigated - and they have been - then clearly the Mueller investigation should continue. We shouldn't let the partisan media drive investigations. We shouldn't let the loudest politicians drive investigations.

Most of these things you list have had multiple investigations. I don't think we want trial by media, and I think we really do need to accept the results of investigations and get on with our lives at some point. If politicians decide they want to reopen other investigations, I'm more inclined to listen if they explain what new information justifies reopening it. If they just keep repeating claims that previous investigations found to be false, I wonder if they might be trying to distract from the Mueller investigation.

The Mueller investigation into Trump has not come to a conclusion. Given the seriousness of the charges, I think we really should have at least one investigation into that. And I think we need to accept the results of such investigations and not keep stirring up warring hostility over these things, whether or not we got the results a particular partisan side might prefer.

Some people claim they don't have a dog in the fight, but can't ever seem to let these things go.
Last edited by Bootstrap on Sat Feb 10, 2018 9:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
0 x
Is it biblical? Is it Christlike? Is it loving? Is it true? How can I find out?
User avatar
Josh
Posts: 23826
Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2016 6:23 pm
Location: 1000' ASL
Affiliation: The church of God

Re: Investigations and the Rule of Law

Post by Josh »

Boot’s degree of confidence in large American government institutions is inspiring; the rest of America (particular the America that doesn’t live near the coasts and doesn’t have six figure incomes) lost that confidence a long time ago, and I don’t see them getting it back anytime soon.
0 x
User avatar
Bootstrap
Posts: 14445
Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2016 9:59 am
Affiliation: Mennonite

Re: Investigations and the Rule of Law

Post by Bootstrap »

Josh wrote:Boot’s degree of confidence in large American government institutions is inspiring; the rest of America (particular the America that doesn’t live near the coasts and doesn’t have six figure incomes) lost that confidence a long time ago, and I don’t see them getting it back anytime soon.
You prefer what, the partisan media? The loudest politicians? Constantly warring with each other over political issues where most people don't even know the basic facts?

How do you believe we should investigate this kind of question if we aren't going to attack each other with torches and pitchforks? How do you believe Christian peacemakers should relate to the two sides in this kind of dispute? I don't think pouring gas on the flames of every political controversy and blaming it on "the other side" is the right answer.

And could you do me a favor? Since I do not have a six figure income and have never been to a cocktail party, could you please stop making up enmity narratives about me that are not true? If you paint me out as the enemy because I believe in the rule of law, we're already losing any attempt to be the Kingdom of God in the midst of this kind of controversy. Do you really want to champion class warfare narratives?
0 x
Is it biblical? Is it Christlike? Is it loving? Is it true? How can I find out?
GaryK
Posts: 2281
Joined: Sat Nov 12, 2016 6:24 pm
Location: Georgia
Affiliation: Unaffiliated

Re: Investigations and the Rule of Law

Post by GaryK »

is it possible to be partisan and non-partisan at the same time?
0 x
User avatar
Bootstrap
Posts: 14445
Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2016 9:59 am
Affiliation: Mennonite

Re: Investigations and the Rule of Law

Post by Bootstrap »

GaryK wrote:is it possible to be partisan and non-partisan at the same time?
Can you explain your question? Provide a little more detail?
0 x
Is it biblical? Is it Christlike? Is it loving? Is it true? How can I find out?
User avatar
Josh
Posts: 23826
Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2016 6:23 pm
Location: 1000' ASL
Affiliation: The church of God

Re: Investigations and the Rule of Law

Post by Josh »

Bootstrap wrote:
Josh wrote:Boot’s degree of confidence in large American government institutions is inspiring; the rest of America (particular the America that doesn’t live near the coasts and doesn’t have six figure incomes) lost that confidence a long time ago, and I don’t see them getting it back anytime soon.
You prefer what, the partisan media? The loudest politicians? Constantly warring with each other over political issues where most people don't even know the basic facts?

How do you believe we should investigate this kind of question if we aren't going to attack each other with torches and pitchforks? How do you believe Christian peacemakers should relate to the two sides in this kind of dispute? I don't think pouring gas on the flames of every political controversy and blaming it on "the other side" is the right answer.

And could you do me a favor? Since I do not have a six figure income and have never been to a cocktail party, could you please stop making up enmity narratives about me that are not true? If you paint me out as the enemy because I believe in the rule of law, we're already losing any attempt to be the Kingdom of God in the midst of this kind of controversy. Do you really want to champion class warfare narratives?
My comment wasn’t intended against you, but I hope you can realise you are an outlier. Most people don’t take your approach to figuring things out (and the world would be very different if they did).

I’m trying to point out that a large swathe of the public has lost confidence in large, central institutions, and that confidence isn’t going to come back regardless of how many facts and how much reliable data you present. A different approach is needed.
0 x
User avatar
Dan Z
Posts: 2650
Joined: Fri Oct 28, 2016 11:20 am
Location: Central Minnesota
Affiliation: Conservative Menno

Re: Investigations and the Rule of Law

Post by Dan Z »

Josh wrote:I’m trying to point out that a large swathe of the public has lost confidence in large, central institutions, and that confidence isn’t going to come back regardless of how many facts and how much reliable data you present. A different approach is needed.
Absolutely Josh! That was the essence of my post in the other thread that Wayne was reacting to - that at issue here is a crisis of confidence in government institutions and the rule of law.

On the right wing, President Trump is a product (not a cause) of anti-establishmentism, born of a strong distrust of government and "deep state" power structures. On the left wing is the same anti-establishmentism, which sees corporations and corporate money as at the root of government corruption. There is certainly some truth to each perspective - but it is truth that is shamelessly being conflated and exploited for political gain (Trump and Bernie are prime exhibits of this phenomenon).

What I didn't say earlier is that, sadly for democracy, both the reactionary left and right wings are growing, and the moderate/independent center, (which is primarily interested in respecting and strengthening fair governance and the rule of law), is shrinking in size and influence (Boot can produce some stats to support this if you'd like to see them). :)
0 x
User avatar
Josh
Posts: 23826
Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2016 6:23 pm
Location: 1000' ASL
Affiliation: The church of God

Re: Investigations and the Rule of Law

Post by Josh »

I would disagree that Trump is “exploiting this for political gain.” If anything, he’s helping bring things back to a centre. Same goes for Mike Pence.
0 x
User avatar
Dan Z
Posts: 2650
Joined: Fri Oct 28, 2016 11:20 am
Location: Central Minnesota
Affiliation: Conservative Menno

Re: Investigations and the Rule of Law

Post by Dan Z »

Wayne in Maine wrote:
Dan Z wrote:Partisan instincts on either side want to predispose the results. Non-partisans and moderates see the accusations of collusion and the Muller process as reasonably credible- and are content to wait for the results before passing judgement.
I'm curious about what you base this statement on.

In light of events during the Obama Administration (The IRS "Tea Party" scandal) and Hillary Clinton's tenure as secretary of state (Benghazi, Clinton Foundation, Uranium One) do these same "non-partisans and moderates" also see accusations of active FBI/DOJ bias and the investigations of House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence as credible?
Boot answered well Wayne. Moderates and independents have relative confidence in the process, and have accepted the results of the oversight and investigations into the scandals you mentioned. It is the anti-establishment types that keep digging up bones.

I have no doubt these middle folks will do the same with the Muller conclusions - provided the process is allowed to run its course in the legally prescribed manner and without obstruction (a tall order from the looks of it :( ). The American system of governance and checks and balances has served well (not perfectly) for over 24 decades now. I say trust the legal system, and let the chips fall where they are meant to fall.
0 x
User avatar
Josh
Posts: 23826
Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2016 6:23 pm
Location: 1000' ASL
Affiliation: The church of God

Re: Investigations and the Rule of Law

Post by Josh »

I’m surprised at the degree of American exceptionalism displayed here. I don’t think a legacy of slavery and abortion is “working well”.
0 x
Post Reply