Investigations and the Rule of Law

Events occurring and how they relate/affect Anabaptist faith and culture.
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Bootstrap
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Re: Investigations and the Rule of Law

Post by Bootstrap »

Josh wrote:I’m surprised at the degree of American exceptionalism displayed here. I don’t think a legacy of slavery and abortion is “working well”.
I don't think this is American exceptionalism, I think every society does better if they find a plausibly fair way of resolving conflicts and if people stop pouring gas on conflicts once they have been resolved. For instance, perhaps we have already resolved the issue of slavery in a good way. Abortion is still a burning unrighteousness that is hard to resolve precisely because too many Americans disagree with our view and we haven't been able to convince Caesar to see it our way. But we shouldn't use abortion to justify every other form of unrighteousness either.
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Bootstrap
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Re: Investigations and the Rule of Law

Post by Bootstrap »

Josh wrote:My comment wasn’t intended against you, but I hope you can realise you are an outlier. Most people don’t take your approach to figuring things out (and the world would be very different if they did).
Thanks, I appreciate that clarification. And yes, I'm an outlier, I am a professional researcher, I'm a very analytical person.

But for most people, I think it would be enough to get a sense for what propaganda feels like, what buttons partisan media push to get you worked up against the other side, how they slip in a few alternative facts once they have that grievance narrative churning. Simple truth is a lot more boring and less emotional, it doesn't feel like partisan warfare, it doesn't use the same language.
Josh wrote:I’m trying to point out that a large swathe of the public has lost confidence in large, central institutions, and that confidence isn’t going to come back regardless of how many facts and how much reliable data you present. A different approach is needed.
If American democracy is to survive, we need to agree on some way to resolve conflicts. What would you suggest for American society as a whole? And what would you suggest for discussions among brethren?
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Josh
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Re: Investigations and the Rule of Law

Post by Josh »

Bootstrap wrote:If American democracy is to survive, we need to agree on some way to resolve conflicts. What would you suggest for American society as a whole? And what would you suggest for discussions among brethren?
I suggest to American society as a whole that they deny themselves, pick up their cross, and follow Jesus.
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Dan Z
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Re: Investigations and the Rule of Law

Post by Dan Z »

Josh wrote:I’m surprised at the degree of American exceptionalism displayed here. I don’t think a legacy of slavery and abortion is “working well”.
I wouldn't want to slap the label of "exceptionalism" on what I said (especially it's "manifest destiny" connotations) - but I do think the "American experiment" has proven itself a worthy model of governance relative to other societies.

I'm talking about polity here not policy. No question there have been decisions that have been made along that way that, looking back, have come down on the wrong side of morality. But when it comes to the ordering of society, representation, checks and balances, justice, and due process, American constitutional government has historically held up better than most.
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GaryK
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Re: Investigations and the Rule of Law

Post by GaryK »

Bootstrap wrote:
GaryK wrote:is it possible to be partisan and non-partisan at the same time?
Can you explain your question? Provide a little more detail?
Is it possible to be involved in the political process and not have a bias against the opposition party? Probably everyone involved in the political process feels they can be objective when observing all that is currently happening but the very nature of politics makes it nigh to impossible. The hypocrisy of politics never ceases to amaze me regardless who is in power. I sincerely doubt there has ever been an investigation of someone politically elected that has been free of political bias.

Followers of Jesus function best when they choose to be involved only in the Kingdom of all kingdoms. Not saying we shouldn't be observant and watchful but I'm not confidant one can have a foot in both kingdoms and be free from the ugliness of politics.
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Hats Off
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Re: Investigations and the Rule of Law

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GaryK wrote: The hypocrisy of politics never ceases to amaze me regardless who is in power. I sincerely doubt there has ever been an investigation of someone politically elected that has been free of political bias.

Followers of Jesus function best when they choose to be involved only in the Kingdom of all kingdoms. Not saying we shouldn't be observant and watchful but I'm not confidant one can have a foot in both kingdoms and be free from the ugliness of politics.
Some may have been elected - but usually not reelected. If an elected person does what he honestly knows to be best for the country, he will probably not be reelected. We had Joe Clark in Canada, an honest man, who ruled the country as prime minister for about 6 months.
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GaryK
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Re: Investigations and the Rule of Law

Post by GaryK »

Hats Off wrote:
GaryK wrote: The hypocrisy of politics never ceases to amaze me regardless who is in power. I sincerely doubt there has ever been an investigation of someone politically elected that has been free of political bias.

Followers of Jesus function best when they choose to be involved only in the Kingdom of all kingdoms. Not saying we shouldn't be observant and watchful but I'm not confidant one can have a foot in both kingdoms and be free from the ugliness of politics.
Some may have been elected - but usually not reelected. If an elected person does what he honestly knows to be best for the country, he will probably not be reelected. We had Joe Clark in Canada, an honest man, who ruled the country as prime minister for about 6 months.
I was referring to investigations not being free of political bias.
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Bootstrap
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Re: Investigations and the Rule of Law

Post by Bootstrap »

GaryK wrote:
Bootstrap wrote:
GaryK wrote:is it possible to be partisan and non-partisan at the same time?
Can you explain your question? Provide a little more detail?
Is it possible to be involved in the political process and not have a bias against the opposition party?
Yes, I think so. But not if you call it "the opposition party". We have a two party system, it's supposed to represent more than one point of view. So in an investigation, for instance, you look at the facts of the case, not whether it is "your guy" or "their guy". For me, that also means not joining political parties or giving to campaigns and being skeptical of media sources that I see as strongly partisan. But I do vote.

And to be blunt, there are clearly people who do not vote, but strongly identify with one of the partisan sides and don't seem to question the "facts" presented by their own favorite partisan media. From what I've seen, I'm just not convinced that "not voting" means "not partisan".

To the most partisan people, of course, all truth is on their side, and anyone who disagrees is irrational and highly partisan to the other side. That's a tell-tale sign. And of course, partisanship is always focused on the struggle between the two sides, not on establishing what is known based on the facts or looking for a fair process to do an investigation.
GaryK wrote:Probably everyone involved in the political process feels they can be objective when observing all that is currently happening but the very nature of politics makes it nigh to impossible. The hypocrisy of politics never ceases to amaze me regardless who is in power. I sincerely doubt there has ever been an investigation of someone politically elected that has been free of political bias.
Free of bias? No, but there can be trials that listen to all of the biased sides in a fair way. By the end of the process, I think Watergate was a wonderful example of bipartisan cooperation to seek a fair outcome. And politics was much cleaner and more cooperative for a while after that.
GaryK wrote:Followers of Jesus function best when they choose to be involved only in the Kingdom of all kingdoms. Not saying we shouldn't be observant and watchful but I'm not confidant one can have a foot in both kingdoms and be free from the ugliness of politics.
Are you saying one should not vote, or that one should not have opinions, or what? To me, the ugliest part of politics is not what happens in the voting booth.
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Wayne in Maine
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Re: Investigations and the Rule of Law

Post by Wayne in Maine »

Dan Z wrote:
Wayne in Maine wrote:
Dan Z wrote:Partisan instincts on either side want to predispose the results. Non-partisans and moderates see the accusations of collusion and the Muller process as reasonably credible- and are content to wait for the results before passing judgement.
I'm curious about what you base this statement on.

In light of events during the Obama Administration (The IRS "Tea Party" scandal) and Hillary Clinton's tenure as secretary of state (Benghazi, Clinton Foundation, Uranium One) do these same "non-partisans and moderates" also see accusations of active FBI/DOJ bias and the investigations of House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence as credible?
Boot answered well Wayne. Moderates and independents have relative confidence in the process, and have accepted the results of the oversight and investigations into the scandals you mentioned. It is the anti-establishment types that keep digging up bones.

I have no doubt these middle folks will do the same with the Muller conclusions - provided the process is allowed to run its course in the legally prescribed manner and without obstruction (a tall order from the looks of it :( ). The American system of governance and checks and balances has served well (not perfectly) for over 24 decades now. I say trust the legal system, and let the chips fall where they are meant to fall.
Neither you nor Boot answered my question: I'm curious about what you base this statement on.
To which I will add: Who are these non-partisans and moderates? I consider myself non-partisan and I am astonished (frightened really) at some of the things that were swept under the rug during the Obama administration.
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Dan Z
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Re: Investigations and the Rule of Law

Post by Dan Z »

Josh wrote:
Bootstrap wrote:If American democracy is to survive, we need to agree on some way to resolve conflicts. What would you suggest for American society as a whole? And what would you suggest for discussions among brethren?
I suggest to American society as a whole that they deny themselves, pick up their cross, and follow Jesus.
I can "amen" this. :)
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