Trey Gowdy: Memo does not invalidate Mueller Investigation

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Wayne in Maine
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Re: Trey Gowdy: Memo does not invalidate Mueller Investigation

Post by Wayne in Maine »

Dan Z wrote:Partisan instincts on either side want to predispose the results. Non-partisans and moderates see the accusations of collusion and the Muller process as reasonably credible - and are content to wait for the results before passing judgement.
I'm curious about what you base this statement on.

In light of events during the Obama Administration (The IRS "Tea Party" scandal) and Hillary Clinton's tenure as secretary of state (Benghazi, Clinton Foundation, Uranium One) do these same "non-partisans and moderates" also see accusations of active FBI/DOJ bias and the investigations of House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence as credible?
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Bootstrap
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Re: Trey Gowdy: Memo does not invalidate Mueller Investigation

Post by Bootstrap »

Wayne in Maine wrote:
Dan Z wrote:Partisan instincts on either side want to predispose the results. Non-partisans and moderates see the accusations of collusion and the Muller process as reasonably credible - and are content to wait for the results before passing judgement.
I'm curious about what you base this statement on.

In light of events during the Obama Administration (The IRS "Tea Party" scandal) and Hillary Clinton's tenure as secretary of state (Benghazi, Clinton Foundation, Uranium One) do these same "non-partisans and moderates" also see accusations of active FBI/DOJ bias and the investigations of House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence as credible?
I will answer this in a separate thread - I don't want to lose the ability to discuss the topic of this thread in this thread.
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Wayne in Maine
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Re: Trey Gowdy: Memo does not invalidate Mueller Investigation

Post by Wayne in Maine »

Bootstrap wrote:
Wayne in Maine wrote:
Dan Z wrote:Partisan instincts on either side want to predispose the results. Non-partisans and moderates see the accusations of collusion and the Muller process as reasonably credible - and are content to wait for the results before passing judgement.
I'm curious about what you base this statement on.

In light of events during the Obama Administration (The IRS "Tea Party" scandal) and Hillary Clinton's tenure as secretary of state (Benghazi, Clinton Foundation, Uranium One) do these same "non-partisans and moderates" also see accusations of active FBI/DOJ bias and the investigations of House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence as credible?
I will answer this in a separate thread - I don't want to lose the ability to discuss the topic of this thread in this thread.
I asked this of DanZ.
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Re: Trey Gowdy: Memo does not invalidate Mueller Investigation

Post by Josh »

An open question I have is if a “non-partisan” and “moderate” actually exist; in my opinion, they are actually some of the most partisan people there are.

I seem to have a reputation as a right wing partisan in these parts, particularly with the self-described “moderates” here, despite:

1. Actively helping OFA and Ohio Democratic Party campaigns in 2007 and 2011 and actively campaigning against Prop. 8 in 2008

2. Complete abstinence from electioneering, voting, or other political activity since 2014

3. Most my personal efforts are to build bridges with people who don’t agree with me. So I’m quite comfortable being friends with and even discussing politics with a self declared left wing person; visiting a Trotskyist book club; or striking up a conversation with someone where I recognised OFA stickers on her laptop from a prior campaign (and ended up with an invitation to the young professionals’ club she was getting started in my area).

Somehow that’s been parlayed on MennoNet into being a radical right-wing Trump partisan. I’m not, but I think understanding the perspectives of partisans is very important - because almost all people are partisan.
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Re: Trey Gowdy: Memo does not invalidate Mueller Investigation

Post by Bootstrap »

Wayne in Maine wrote:I asked this of DanZ.
OK, but please don't change the topic of this thread, no matter who you are asking. Please use another thread if you want to bring up lots of other controversies.
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Re: Trey Gowdy: Memo does not invalidate Mueller Investigation

Post by Dan Z »

Good point Josh. Perhaps I should define terms, at least the way I see them. :)

I think "Independent" is perhaps a better term than "Non-partisan." At any given time an independent may favor one party or another (depending on who is in office, and where the party platform is at the moment)...so I suppose at that moment they could be considered "partisan" in their leanings. But they would not have the same loyalty and commitment to a party's ideology and candidates that a true partisan would have, and they might just as easily lean the other direction down the road. There are certainly independents who support Trump right now - and independents who don't. An independent probably wouldn't say, for example, "the Republican party is the more noble party," but they might say "President Trump is the more noble candidate."

"Moderates," on the other hand, are self-identifying liberals or conservatives who are inclined toward the center of the political spectrum. They will generally vote the party line, but as I mentioned, they tend to be less reactionary by nature, and have a higher confidence in established systems, regular order, and the rule of law. They are also more prone to compromise with the other party, or cross party lines, to get things done or follow their conscience.

A "Non-partisan," in my mind, is different from and "independent" because it is a person who is somewhat engaged in current events, but deliberately works at remaining aloof from political allegiances, ideologies, and candidates - perhaps even from voting. This doesn't preclude them from passing judgement on a particular issue or candidate one way or the other - but they wont pass judgement according to a party template. I think you are right - this represents a quite small group of people - although we do have a number of them on MN.
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Josh
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Re: Trey Gowdy: Memo does not invalidate Mueller Investigation

Post by Josh »

Campaign research focuses heavily on so-called "independents", since they are an opportunity to get them to vote for your guy. The only focus of campaigning with partisan voters is to make sure turnout is high if the election will be close.
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Re: Trey Gowdy: Memo does not invalidate Mueller Investigation

Post by RZehr »

Josh wrote:An open question I have is if a “non-partisan” and “moderate” actually exist; in my opinion, they are actually some of the most partisan people there are.

I seem to have a reputation as a right wing partisan in these parts, particularly with the self-described “moderates” here, despite:

1. Actively helping OFA and Ohio Democratic Party campaigns in 2007 and 2011 and actively campaigning against Prop. 8 in 2008

2. Complete abstinence from electioneering, voting, or other political activity since 2014

3. Most my personal efforts are to build bridges with people who don’t agree with me. So I’m quite comfortable being friends with and even discussing politics with a self declared left wing person; visiting a Trotskyist book club; or striking up a conversation with someone where I recognised OFA stickers on her laptop from a prior campaign (and ended up with an invitation to the young professionals’ club she was getting started in my area).

Somehow that’s been parlayed on MennoNet into being a radical right-wing Trump partisan. I’m not, but I think understanding the perspectives of partisans is very important - because almost all people are partisan.
This does help me understand a bit where you are coming from on politics.
You seem to be quite anti left wing. And I think we tend to be hardest on our own tendencies/weaknesses.
So I can see how what you post may not be so “Pro Republican” in nature.
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Re: Trey Gowdy: Memo does not invalidate Mueller Investigation

Post by temporal1 »

as far as the words, “partisan, non-partisan, bipartisan,” go.
these words have different uses. the elected are expected to be partisan, but, in their work, they also need to work in non-partisan, or bipartisan, ways - i.e., for the good of the people (not for themselves!) - “not for themselves” has become a big problem. the people are onto it, and, not happy.

partisanship has been magnified with the advent of big trends toward “poltical activism.”
presently, at least some universities are offering studies+opportunities for this very purpose!
paid jobs+careers are opening up. obama has talked of his commitment to this very end since before he retired, openly plans use of his library (center) as a Chicago-based center to teach (political activist “missionaries.”) it is no secret. not speculation. partisanship is not going away, it’s being carefully nourished, protected, funded.

once careers are established, the honorable “temporary” aspect of “righting any wrong” is replaced with long-term, permanent, “change .. for the sake of my personal career.”
money-money-money. sharpton and jackson are two examples. it’s a cash cow.

“moderate?” today, maybe that means, “not directly inciting violence? no death chants?”
it may have come to that. it may get worse.
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Most or all of this drama, humiliation, wasted taxpayer money could be spared -
with even modest attempt at presenting balanced facts from the start.


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temporal1
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Re: Trey Gowdy: Memo does not invalidate Mueller Investigation

Post by temporal1 »

RZehr wrote: This does help me understand a bit where you are coming from on politics.
You seem to be quite anti left wing. And I think we tend to be hardest on our own tendencies/weaknesses.
So I can see how what you post may not be so “Pro Republican” in nature.
agreed.
in a climate of “never trumpers,” to request any accountability of the left is perceived as, “anti-left wing,” or far worse.
Josh, and some notable others on forum, request balance. that should not be asking too much.
it’s not deserving of dismissal and labels. but, i agree with Josh. it’s on this forum, too.

it reminds of the classic tale, “The Emperor’s New Clothes.”
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Most or all of this drama, humiliation, wasted taxpayer money could be spared -
with even modest attempt at presenting balanced facts from the start.


”We’re all just walking each other home.”
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