Trey Gowdy: Memo does not invalidate Mueller Investigation

Events occurring and how they relate/affect Anabaptist faith and culture.
User avatar
Dan Z
Posts: 2648
Joined: Fri Oct 28, 2016 11:20 am
Location: Central Minnesota
Affiliation: Conservative Menno

Re: Trey Gowdy: Memo does not invalidate Mueller Investigation

Post by Dan Z »

Dan Z wrote:Partisan instincts on either side want to predispose the results. Non-partisans and moderates see the accusations of collusion and the Muller process as reasonably credible - and are content to wait for the results before passing judgement.
However, somewhere at the core here is a bigger issue: the level of trust in governmental institutions.

I think generally those in the center tend to have more trust in these institutions than those on the edges. Trump was a product of the edge, as was Bernie, and those on the edges tend to be distrustful of "the establishment" - or more significantly, both edges see conspiracy, "deep-state" subversion bent on destroying America. The difference between left and right edges is where they source the power - leftists source it in corporations, rightists source it in government.
0 x
temporal1
Posts: 16275
Joined: Sat Oct 22, 2016 12:09 pm
Location: U.S. midwest and PNW
Affiliation: Christian other

Re: Trey Gowdy: Memo does not invalidate Mueller Investigation

Post by temporal1 »

JimFoxvog wrote:I'd put myself as a mix of #1 and #3.

I think the memo was a purely partisan effort to discredit the investigation, but I do not have firm conclusions of what will be the results of the investigation;
I can wait on that.
yes. jumping on this tidbit (that says nothing) helps nothing. for a period, this forum was better than that. a temporary respite.

the only certain thing is, corruption is running deep, it has been (maybe for always) it’s not going to be resolved in a “news flash.”

i hope Trump has some success in upending the “powers that be,” it’s long over due.
millionaires+billionaires are fighting for their way of life. they do not intend to lose.

not to mention, reality is, “media” LOVES controversy, panic, the circus.
they’re not about peace making.

presidents have been assassinated over less. i pray we do not have to experience another one. :-|
0 x
Most or all of this drama, humiliation, wasted taxpayer money could be spared -
with even modest attempt at presenting balanced facts from the start.


”We’re all just walking each other home.”
UNKNOWN
User avatar
Bootstrap
Posts: 14438
Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2016 9:59 am
Affiliation: Mennonite

Re: Trey Gowdy: Memo does not invalidate Mueller Investigation

Post by Bootstrap »

Dan Z wrote:
Dan Z wrote:Partisan instincts on either side want to predispose the results. Non-partisans and moderates see the accusations of collusion and the Muller process as reasonably credible - and are content to wait for the results before passing judgement.
However, somewhere at the core here is a bigger issue: the level of trust in governmental institutions.
Yes, but there's another twist on this: the balance of powers. The Constitution acknowledges that every time you give anybody power, you need a system of checks and balances to keep it from getting out of control. So what are the checks and balances on the President of the United States if there is an investigation into what he himself has been doing?

The courts, Congress, the Justice Department, the intelligence community, and the Free Press are the main checks and balances here. I trust government as a whole much more than I trust an authoritarian leader who questions the validity of every check and balance put in place by the Constitution, Congress, and the courts.

Look across the pond at Putin, Modi, or Erdogan and you can see why that's important to me. If the president can eliminate every real check and balance, what we have left is not democracy. In America, that really shouldn't be seen as some fringe political view. That's why so many Republicans are protecting Mueller.

And that's the most important reason that this investigation must be allowed to proceed.
0 x
Is it biblical? Is it Christlike? Is it loving? Is it true? How can I find out?
User avatar
Bootstrap
Posts: 14438
Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2016 9:59 am
Affiliation: Mennonite

Re: Trey Gowdy: Memo does not invalidate Mueller Investigation

Post by Bootstrap »

temporal1 wrote:the only certain thing is, corruption is running deep, it has been (maybe for always) it’s not going to be resolved in a “news flash.”

i hope Trump has some success in upending the “powers that be,” it’s long over due.
millionaires+billionaires are fighting for their way of life. they do not intend to lose.
What makes you so sure that Trump is against corruption, isn't that one of the things that is being investigated? What makes you so sure that Trump is against millionaires and billionaires, who do you see him hanging out with, and who do you see him appointing to offices in government?

If people like Trump and his associates cannot be investigated, do you think that would lead to less corruption and less power in the hands of millionaires and billionaires?
0 x
Is it biblical? Is it Christlike? Is it loving? Is it true? How can I find out?
temporal1
Posts: 16275
Joined: Sat Oct 22, 2016 12:09 pm
Location: U.S. midwest and PNW
Affiliation: Christian other

Re: Trey Gowdy: Memo does not invalidate Mueller Investigation

Post by temporal1 »

Bootstrap wrote:
temporal1 wrote:the only certain thing is, corruption is running deep, it has been (maybe for always) it’s not going to be resolved in a “news flash.”

i hope Trump has some success in upending the “powers that be,” it’s long over due.
millionaires+billionaires are fighting for their way of life. they do not intend to lose.
What makes you so sure that Trump is against corruption, isn't that one of the things that is being investigated? What makes you so sure that Trump is against millionaires and billionaires, who do you see him hanging out with, and who do you see him appointing to offices in government?

If people like Trump and his associates cannot be investigated, do you think that would lead to less corruption and less power in the hands of millionaires and billionaires?
i do not recall suggesting any of the things you’ve listed here. please don’t read between (my) lines. :)

from what i see, there are enough wrongs to go-round, as i’ve said before, NONE of these guys are saints.

as far as hanging with billionaires goes -
you can’t possibly overlook obama’s, hillary’s/the clintons besties?! .. :shock:
come on.

Trump happened to be the one to dare to upset applecarts, he may be the best one to deal with the price to be paid. that’s not to say he’s a saint. he just happens to have the “inside straight” from dealing with (all) politicians for decades. dealing with them, and being courted by them.

no complaints about Trump before he was elected POTUS. when he was a democrat.
most complaints about him are from when he was a democrat. so, that’s something to think about, right there.

Trump is not a staunch conservative. not sure anyone is confused on that.

the corruption cannot be divided, conservative-liberal. that’s overly simplistic.

there has been so much fraternizing between the two, for personal gain, not for public service, this is part+parcel of the problem. digging out of that mire will take sustained effort.

so, we will see.
0 x
Most or all of this drama, humiliation, wasted taxpayer money could be spared -
with even modest attempt at presenting balanced facts from the start.


”We’re all just walking each other home.”
UNKNOWN
User avatar
Josh
Posts: 23806
Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2016 6:23 pm
Location: 1000' ASL
Affiliation: The church of God

Re: Trey Gowdy: Memo does not invalidate Mueller Investigation

Post by Josh »

I'm not sure where the "intelligence agencies" are in the Constitution as part of the balance of power; at concern here is that they seem most interested in defending themselves and remaining as unaccountable as possible to the American public.

Exactly how many warrants has the FISA court turned down?
0 x
User avatar
ohio jones
Posts: 5221
Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2016 11:23 pm
Location: undisclosed
Affiliation: Rosedale Network

Re: Trey Gowdy: Memo does not invalidate Mueller Investigation

Post by ohio jones »

Bootstrap wrote:The courts, Congress, the Justice Department, the intelligence community, and the Free Press are the main checks and balances here.
Not sure the Freep alone rises to quite that level, but the media as a whole does play a part in the balance of power; not in a constitutional sense, but in functional terms.
Last edited by ohio jones on Fri Feb 09, 2018 1:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
0 x
I grew up around Indiana, You grew up around Galilee; And if I ever really do grow up, I wanna grow up to be just like You -- Rich Mullins

I am a Christian and my name is Pilgram; I'm on a journey, but I'm not alone -- NewSong, slightly edited
User avatar
Bootstrap
Posts: 14438
Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2016 9:59 am
Affiliation: Mennonite

Re: Trey Gowdy: Memo does not invalidate Mueller Investigation

Post by Bootstrap »

Josh wrote:I'm not sure where the "intelligence agencies" are in the Constitution as part of the balance of power; at concern here is that they seem most interested in defending themselves and remaining as unaccountable as possible to the American public.

Exactly how many warrants has the FISA court turned down?
As far as I can tell, the Nunes memo really makes only one serious allegation: it claims that the FBI misled the FISA court, but people who have seen the documents disagree about what they actually say, and there was certainly plenty of public information about Carter Page. After all, he announced that he was an "advisor to the Kremlin" in 2013, then became an advisor to a presidential campaign, and he had been investigated for working with Russian spies before he ever got involved with the Trump campaign. And as the Nunes memo tells us, the Trump campaign was already being investigated for ties to Russia because George Papadopoulos got drunk in a London bar and told the Australian ambassador that the Russians had dirt on Hillary Clinton, and when the Clinton emails were released, the Australian intelligence agencies notified the FBI of their concerns. That was not dependent on the Steele Report.

So I find it odd if the FBI did not mention any of this other information when seeking permission to wiretap, and even Grassley and Graham tell us that there were two footnotes that described "the political origins of the dossier". They complain that the footnotes do not specifically mention the Clinton campaign, but they conveniently omit the original Republican funders of the dossier in their own memo.
Screen Shot 2018-02-09 at 3.30.36 PM.png
Screen Shot 2018-02-09 at 3.30.36 PM.png (233.52 KiB) Viewed 306 times
I don't think we can rely on partisan politicians or a partisan press to give us accurate information about these classified materials. But Lawfare has a great suggestion - the FISA courts are responsible for this oversight, let the FISA courts tell us if they are satisfied with the materials the FBI provided them with.
Lawfare wrote:You wouldn’t know it from the endless public discussion of the Nunes Memo and the Democratic response to it, but the House of Representatives does not get to decide whether a FISA application is valid. Congress gets to decide what the legal standards are under FISA. But at the end of the day, the judge of any individual FISA application is not the chairman of the House intelligence committee. It’s not the ranking member either. It’s actually not even the President of the United States either. It’s an institution we haven’t heard from on the allegations in the Nunes Memo: Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court.

If the Justice Department and the FBI knowingly used an unreliably biased witness to win a FISA warrant against Carter Page, violating his civil liberties in the process, you would therefore expect that there are some judges on the FISC who are concerned. They, after all, are the ones who were misled. They are the ones who signed warrants and renewals based on shoddy information. Conversely, if the judges on the FISC are not hopping mad, you might take that as evidence that they don’t, in fact, feel misled and that the Justice Department and FBI conduct was, after all, reasonably within the obligations of lawyers and investigators before the court.
0 x
Is it biblical? Is it Christlike? Is it loving? Is it true? How can I find out?
User avatar
Bootstrap
Posts: 14438
Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2016 9:59 am
Affiliation: Mennonite

Re: Trey Gowdy: Memo does not invalidate Mueller Investigation

Post by Bootstrap »

temporal1 wrote: i do not recall suggesting any of the things you’ve listed here. please don’t read between (my) lines. :)
OK, I apparently misread between the lines. Please forgive me for that.
0 x
Is it biblical? Is it Christlike? Is it loving? Is it true? How can I find out?
temporal1
Posts: 16275
Joined: Sat Oct 22, 2016 12:09 pm
Location: U.S. midwest and PNW
Affiliation: Christian other

Re: Trey Gowdy: Memo does not invalidate Mueller Investigation

Post by temporal1 »

“If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles.
If you know yourself but not the enemy, for every victory gained you will also suffer a defeat.
If you know neither the enemy nor yourself, you will succumb in every battle.”
― Sun Tzu, The Art of War / Late Sixth Century BC
i once saw a documentary on The Art of War, it was interesting.
Trump seems to have a lot of power (i believe) because he knows career/establishment politicians so well. And, they know he knows. There’s a lot of (earned) guilt out there, that’s being made clear each day. Guilt puts peoples’ nerves on edge.

This whole thing is like watching a high stakes tennis match.
0 x
Most or all of this drama, humiliation, wasted taxpayer money could be spared -
with even modest attempt at presenting balanced facts from the start.


”We’re all just walking each other home.”
UNKNOWN
Post Reply