"Elites" - who are they and why do they dislike Pres. Trump?

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Dan Z
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Re: "Elites" - who are they and why do they dislike Pres. Trump?

Post by Dan Z »

Mike wrote:One way to be politics-free is to not post in DanZ's thread. :)
And miss all the fun? 8-)
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Re: "Elites" - who are they and why do they dislike Pres. Trump?

Post by Bootstrap »

RZehr wrote:
Bootstrap wrote:Of course there are some aspects of our culture we will never want to wade in. And I think that includes WWF-style politics. Politics should not be about beating each other up while the fans cheer from the sidelines. If we do vote or talk about politics, I don't think we should participate in that.
Agree.
But who says politics shouldn't be about beating each other up while the fans cheer from the sidelines? I get what you are saying. Ideally it shouldn't be that way. But we are living in reality and that is the way politics are.
Not always, and not everywhere. I remember the post-Watergate era as a time that both parties cooperated to rebuild, and I thought that Reagan and the Democrats did a pretty good job of working together despite their disagreements. My city and county government are surprisingly good and in some elections, I am not sure who to vote for because there are too many good candidates.

And WWF-style politics win because the American people keep saying that's what we want. We love the fight, policy is detailed and boring, we don't want to think about the budget numbers. The fight gets them elected - along with the money they get from lobbyists. So running the government isn't as important as keeping the fight going and feeding the lobbyists who fund their campaigns.
RZehr wrote: the political partys are pushing politics this way much harder and successfully and professionally than the mildly interested voter will ever be able to defend against.
I think its cleaner to just concede politics and their ways to the politicians and political parties.
I very much respect your position on that.
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Bootstrap
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Re: "Elites" - who are they and why do they dislike Pres. Trump?

Post by Bootstrap »

mike wrote:One way to be politics-free is to not post in DanZ's thread. :)
If all the people who don't like WWF just stop posting, the WWF people tend to take over.
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Robert
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Re: "Elites" - who are they and why do they dislike Pres. Trump?

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It takes two to fight. Even when someone tries to appear polished and "above the fray," they are actually still in the middle of it all. One who has to always correct another and show them their mistakes or misunderstandings are really showing their elitism and are really rolling in the mud with the rest of them, they are just deluding themselves. The others see and know exactly what the other side is doing.

"Shut up and listen to me. I know what is best for you."

"You are just not educated enough, so your opinion doesn't matter."

These are just a couple of the things we hear that make us reject just about everything an elite says. Elites are from a more literary culture. Us lowly folks are more of an oral culture. We do not trust what is said unless we trust the sayer. Just because it is written down, doesn't mean it is true. It means that the one who wrote it down could be lying.

I see the battle of the elites and commoners similar to the struggle between literary and oral cultures.
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Re: "Elites" - who are they and why do they dislike Pres. Trump?

Post by Bootstrap »

Robert wrote:It takes two to fight. Even when someone tries to appear polished and "above the fray," they are actually still in the middle of it all. One who has to always correct another and show them their mistakes or misunderstandings are really showing their elitism and are really rolling in the mud with the rest of them, they are just deluding themselves. The others see and know exactly what the other side is doing.
Robert, I really see this quite differently. To me, the cycle that repeats over and over again looks like this.

A: Here's this fact that proves that those people I want to throw mud on are awful.
B: Let's take a look at those facts to see if they are true. Hmmmm, I don't think so ...
A: You are just trying to throw dirt on me! You think you are better than me! What makes you think you know? I know this a whole lot better than you do, here are some awful things that I'm going to speculate you are probably thinking about me inside your head ...

To me, the solution is either (1) to stop trying to throw mud on people who aren't here, or (2) to look at the facts together and stop trying to throw mud at other participants. I think I'm very willing to change my opinion in light of facts, but I don't think a discussion that is about who is more right or who is better is going to lead to truth.

In the political field, A is often simply repeating the latest gossip from the political right or left. On MN, it's the political right. The "facts" that are given must not be challenged, and if they are, A is going to feel insulted. In fact, that's part of the whole game - "you must accept this as true, or at least not challenge it, because if you don't, I will take it personally".

If it is offensive to correct facts and show mistakes and misunderstandings, then we are saying we don't care about truth. Feel free to correct my facts and show my mistakes and misunderstandings any time.
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Re: "Elites" - who are they and why do they dislike Pres. Trump?

Post by Dan Z »

OK - Back to the question at hand:

First, thanks all who have contributed to the topic so far (even those who have entered the discussion to talk about how we shouldn't be having such discussions) ;). Here's what I have heard about the question of the "Elites":
  • 1) "Elites" are people with an attitude of superiority by virtue of their wealth, education and/or position of power in society (i.e. career/"establishment" politician, highly paid professional, celebrity status, wealthy/powerful family, liberal media).

    2) "Elites" exhibit their own cultural norms (perhaps as a litmus test - like a secret handshake) that value smooth (PC) talk, linguistic and cultural markers of high education, and the use of status symbols. These norms are generally out of touch with the vernacular of regular Americans, and often feel like a form of cultural judgement.

    3) Reading between the lines a bit, this is at its core about wealth and power. Regular/middle-low income (middle-low culture) Americans feel cut out of the power and wealth that the elites enjoy and hold on to. Trump, to them, represents a potential upending of these establishment power centers.
Examples of "Elites" have been the Clintons, the Bush Family, Michael Moore, Mitt Romney, John McCain, the "Liberal Media", various pop-culture celebrities, and the highly educated.

Josh had said there are "elites" within conservative Anabaptism as well - although these people weren't identified in our discussion. Maybe we're getting a bit too close to home with this one.

Regarding why the "elites" dislike President Trump, this was less clear in our discussion, although a number of people mentioned that Trump is not so "high and mighty" in his language and cultural tastes. (It is interesting to me that Trump, who has made a brand out of lavish wealth and pride, is still seen as culturally resonant with regular Americans).

Maybe we can flesh this out a bit more now that we have defined who the elites are.
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Re: "Elites" - who are they and why do they dislike Pres. Trump?

Post by hillperson »

Dan Z wrote:OK - Back to the question at hand:

First, thanks all who have contributed to the topic so far (even those who have entered the discussion to talk about how we shouldn't be having such discussions) ;). Here's what I have heard about the question of the "Elites":
  • 1) "Elites" are people with an attitude of superiority by virtue of their wealth, education and/or position of power in society (i.e. career/"establishment" politician, highly paid professional, celebrity status, wealthy/powerful family, liberal media).

    2) "Elites" exhibit their own cultural norms (perhaps as a litmus test - like a secret handshake) that value smooth (PC) talk, linguistic and cultural markers of high education, and the use of status symbols. These norms are generally out of touch with the vernacular of regular Americans, and often feel like a form of cultural judgement.

    3) Reading between the lines a bit, this is at its core about wealth and power. Regular/middle-low income (middle-low culture) Americans feel cut out of the power and wealth that the elites enjoy and hold on to. Trump, to them, represents a potential upending of these establishment power centers.
Examples of "Elites" have been the Clintons, the Bush Family, Michael Moore, Mitt Romney, John McCain, the "Liberal Media", various pop-culture celebrities, and the highly educated.

Josh had said there are "elites" within conservative Anabaptism as well - although these people weren't identified in our discussion. Maybe we're getting a bit too close to home with this one.

Regarding why the "elites" dislike President Trump, this was less clear in our discussion, although a number of people mentioned that Trump is not so "high and mighty" in his language and cultural tastes. (It is interesting to me that Trump, who has made a brand out of lavish wealth and pride, is still seen as culturally resonant with regular Americans).

Maybe we can flesh this out a bit more now that we have defined who the elites are.


I think he spoke and speaks laymans language..... I think all the phrasing that he uses at rallies that the crowd's love are used because it's the voice of the common people.

For instance, Lock her up, (which Boot hates :shock: ). Imagine two regular/middle-class men talking about Benghazi and how Hillary lied to the American people about it happening because of a video -Their response may have been, She's so corrupt they should Lock her up....

I live in PA, Trump country, and used to clean for a 95 year old lady.... She did not care for Trump as a person but she was still so upset about seeing Obama and Hillary come out and talking to the family of those killed in Benghazi and telling them it was a video that caused the tragedy, when all along they knew what happened. She watches a lot of TV and saw it with her own eyes. It was after that she was determined Hillary must not get elected -although she always told me that just watch it doesn't matter how corrupt Hillary is she'll still get elected.

So when the election came around, she was determined to vote...... It was very hard for her to get to the polls but she did. Her daughter took her. But she was sure Trump would not get in so she went to bed before the results were in. In the morning her granddaughter called her yelling Trump, Trump, Trump. They were so excited.
Last edited by hillperson on Fri Feb 02, 2018 12:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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hillperson
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Re: "Elites" - who are they and why do they dislike Pres. Trump?

Post by hillperson »

IMHO it was Obama and his liberal agenda and Hillary's corruption that got Trump elected. They have noone to blame but themselves.
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Re: "Elites" - who are they and why do they dislike Pres. Trump?

Post by Robert »

Bootstrap wrote: If it is offensive to correct facts and show mistakes and misunderstandings, then we are saying we don't care about truth.
When one does it unendingly to show how the other is wrong, it wears on and one feels beat down continually.

It comes down to the question, what is more important, being right or having a relationship?

My wife rolls her eyes at me often because the point doesn't matter as much as my ability to voice myself. Whenever I say "always" I really do not mean always, but I am feeling this a lot.

I learned long ago(but I did have to learn this) not to constantly correct her because she feels belittled and unappreciated.

So I care about the truth, but I also know it needs to be tempered so it does not squash others. Because we are overloaded with data, we all have to filter it. Truth to one person may not be the same truth for another, because both are biased in their view. I know I am biased. I freely admit it and accept that it does shape the way I see truth. I also know that that bias will have little overall affect on my life and the way I engage others.
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Re: "Elites" - who are they and why do they dislike Pres. Trump?

Post by temporal1 »

i’ve never heard anyone say, or suggest,
“i’m an elitist, with all the fails that go with it.”

neither will i hold my breath.
somehow, it’s easier for folks to claim the “deplorables” label, laugh about it, move on, than “elitist.”
elitists have no sense of humor about themselves. :)

maybe if that changes one day, it will happen.
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Most or all of this drama, humiliation, wasted taxpayer money could be spared -
with even modest attempt at presenting balanced facts from the start.


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