"Elites" - who are they and why do they dislike Pres. Trump?

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Bootstrap
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Re: "Elites" - who are they and why do they dislike Pres. Trump?

Post by Bootstrap »

GaryK wrote:Bootstrap, I wonder if you've considered how this kind of response could come across to people who don't hold to your view on climate change?
I probably shouldn't have posted that, and I probably just need to stay out of that thread. I don't think I have a problem discussing thing with people who disagree with me on climate change, but in threads I participate in, I do want to be clear when we are talking about something like a scientific paper and when we are talking about a politically charged article on Breitbart.

So the bottom line really might be that for threads where we try to figure out what's true, I need separate threads with a little structure. As I said in the other thread:
Bootstrap wrote:Maybe I just live in a very different world. I do a lot of research, so when someone says they think something is true, we all say, "oh, is it? how can we tell?", and we go off and look at that question one step at a time, changing our minds as we learn new things. We learn what the facts are as we go and challenge each other's conclusions. When one of us says, "I think it's like this", another one says, "no, I think it's like this", we compare, and we move on. I'm rather used to being proven wrong several times a day, and there are days that it may be much higher.

That just doesn't go well when I try to do that here, at least not in the political threads, and I think climate change is usually treated more as a political controversy than a scientific question here. We actually do that reasonably well when discussing what a Bible passage means or how to apply it, and we've started doing well at that even in the sexual abuse thread. I think we are living in a time that anything that touches politics brings out rancor and high emotions and makes it hard to discuss. That part of our brain isn't very good at science or at analyzing what's going on in politics.
I suspect spawning separate threads for the things I want to discuss that way may be the right way to go. I probably need to just avoid the drama threads.
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GaryK
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Re: "Elites" - who are they and why do they dislike Pres. Trump?

Post by GaryK »

Bootstrap wrote: I probably shouldn't have posted that, and I probably just need to stay out of that thread. I don't think I have a problem discussing thing with people who disagree with me on climate change, but in threads I participate in, I do want to be clear when we are talking about something like a scientific paper and when we are talking about a politically charged article on Breitbart.
But was your response any less politically charged than Breitbart's? IMO your response proved the point of the quote.
Science is about studying what is. Politics is about what ought to be or what might be. Science is about objectivity. Politics is about subjectivity.
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Bootstrap
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Re: "Elites" - who are they and why do they dislike Pres. Trump?

Post by Bootstrap »

GaryK wrote:
Bootstrap wrote: I probably shouldn't have posted that, and I probably just need to stay out of that thread. I don't think I have a problem discussing thing with people who disagree with me on climate change, but in threads I participate in, I do want to be clear when we are talking about something like a scientific paper and when we are talking about a politically charged article on Breitbart.
But was your response any less politically charged than Breitbart's? IMO your response proved the point of the quote.
Science is about studying what is. Politics is about what ought to be or what might be. Science is about objectivity. Politics is about subjectivity.
Yes, I think so. Most scientists would agree that a "paper" is not the same thing as an emotionally charged article on Breitbart. That's not a politically charged thing. But it was snarky in a way that wasn't helpful.

And wrangling over words probably isn't terribly useful.
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Re: "Elites" - who are they and why do they dislike Pres. Trump?

Post by GaryK »

Bootstrap wrote:
GaryK wrote:
Bootstrap wrote: I probably shouldn't have posted that, and I probably just need to stay out of that thread. I don't think I have a problem discussing thing with people who disagree with me on climate change, but in threads I participate in, I do want to be clear when we are talking about something like a scientific paper and when we are talking about a politically charged article on Breitbart.
But was your response any less politically charged than Breitbart's? IMO your response proved the point of the quote.
Science is about studying what is. Politics is about what ought to be or what might be. Science is about objectivity. Politics is about subjectivity.
Yes, I think so. Most scientists would agree that a "paper" is not the same thing as an emotionally charged article on Breitbart. That's not a politically charged thing. But it was snarky in a way that wasn't helpful.

And wrangling over words probably isn't terribly useful.
I took it that Max was saying he read it in a newspaper not a scientific paper. I could very well be wrong.
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Re: "Elites" - who are they and why do they dislike Pres. Trump?

Post by MaxPC »

GaryK wrote: I took it that Max was saying he read it in a newspaper not a scientific paper. I could very well be wrong.
You're correct, Gary. :up:
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Re: "Elites" - who are they and why do they dislike Pres. Trump?

Post by Bootstrap »

MaxPC wrote:
GaryK wrote: I took it that Max was saying he read it in a newspaper not a scientific paper. I could very well be wrong.
You're correct, Gary. :up:
OK, I'm sorry I misunderstood. And sorry for the snark.
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Re: "Elites" - who are they and why do they dislike Pres. Trump?

Post by GaryK »

Bootstrap wrote:
MaxPC wrote:
GaryK wrote: I took it that Max was saying he read it in a newspaper not a scientific paper. I could very well be wrong.
You're correct, Gary. :up:
OK, I'm sorry I misunderstood. And sorry for the snark.
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Re: "Elites" - who are they and why do they dislike Pres. Trump?

Post by lesterb »

Sudsy wrote:
Dan Z wrote:The idea of "elites" came up quite a bit in our Trump Poll Discussion. Here is a thread to discuss "elites" and their perspectives.

So...who are these elites ?
What makes them elite? What defines them as elite?
Who are the elites within Conservative Anabaptism?
Moving more to this last question, from someone not raised Anabaptist but after study and reading more about Conservative Anabaptism, all CAs come across as elites in that their brand of Anabaptism and practises even are referred to as 'conservative' which seems to me to say 'holier' or 'more accurate' Christ followers than both other CAs and other Anabaptists.

Probably the 'most elite' amongst CAs from my readings would be the Holdeman group who go as far as openly viewing themselves as the one true church. This seems the highest 'elite' statement to me.

And these are just my takes from basically only being new to Anabaptism for the past 15 or so, off and on years. One area of eliteness would be those who hold to 'closed communion'. Another would be certain dress styles and adornments. And also what constitutes simple living and separation from the world. And of course, Christian music and worship styles.

I do believe according to Romans 14, these different areas if they are done unto the Lord, are up to the individual. We do not need a church all looking and acting identically the same and they obviously were not that way in the early church. The area of rules and forced norms I can't agree with. But it really isn't so much about this as it is the way these distinctions often seem to come across. To me, it sounds like a competition at times and smacks of eliteness (we are better).

On the other hand, liberal Anabaptism and/or those Anabaptists who favour more evangelism or being A-Political, for examples. They, too, can come across as 'a cut above' other Anabaptists and have an elite attitude. 'You CAs are all locked up in your tradition and we are set free from all that'.

Sometimes we just need a good reminder of Philippians 2.
Most conservative Mennonites view the word conservative as a synonym of the word plain. Those who go further than that, view it as meaning that we are conserving the teachings of a century ago, or some other not-always-clear period of time. Closed communion is not a judgement on other people, it simply states that the local church is a brotherhood and communion is a brotherhood exercise. I've never seen visitors participate in one of our communion services, even if they were part of another WF church. So we wouldn't view any of those things as elitism. In our mind, elite would mean people who ignore plain truth of scripture because they feel that they know better than we do what God expects.

I think we should be careful about labels like that. Our congregational name doesn't even include the word conservative.

As far as Holdeman's go, I have found that when you view them as ordinary people trying to serve God, you don't even think of those things. While that is their official position, I've only been condemned by one of them one time, and that was a long time ago. I got an apology for that from one of their leaders about that later. The man in charge of their publishing house in Kansas contacted me about what I would recommend for a Bible version to use in prison work. He and I had an ongoing correspondence that lasted several years, since we were in a similar occupation at that time. He is one of their highly esteemed leaders and he told me that he has no problem viewing me as a fellow Christian. The main area that we disagreed with each other was in divorce and remarriage. And even there our conversation was congenial.
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Re: "Elites" - who are they and why do they dislike Pres. Trump?

Post by Sudsy »

lesterb wrote: Most conservative Mennonites view the word conservative as a synonym of the word plain. Those who go further than that, view it as meaning that we are conserving the teachings of a century ago, or some other not-always-clear period of time. Closed communion is not a judgement on other people, it simply states that the local church is a brotherhood and communion is a brotherhood exercise. I've never seen visitors participate in one of our communion services, even if they were part of another WF church. So we wouldn't view any of those things as elitism. In our mind, elite would mean people who ignore plain truth of scripture because they feel that they know better than we do what God expects.

OK thanks lesterb. I am giving a perspective from more of an outsider view. Actually, the first time I heard the criticism on communion being closed was in a conversation with a raised Mennonite who was from an open communion group and he thought the closed communion Mennonites were eliteists. He did not view the local church as having some special separation from other Christians outside the local brotherhood. To him, that was against the plain truth of scripture to not consider we are all brothers in the family/brotherhood of God. Another issue was baptism by immersion he thought was being an elite position that those Mennonites thought 'as plain truth of scripture' in that baptism meant immersion. In our MB church everyone who is a professing Christian is welcome in communion and we have people participating from all kinds of churches including other open communion Mennonites. So, even if brands of Mennoniteism have their scriptural reasons for their practises, from an outsiders view (which I probably will always be in at least one sense) all these groupings have the appearance of an elite competition on how best to follow Jesus. And I suspect that many outsiders have no idea that many of these practises are about following Jesus.

I think we should be careful about labels like that. Our congregational name doesn't even include the word conservative.

Yes, I would think these categories and groupings and labels do more harm than good. Imo, Paul told the Corinthian church to 'knock it off' with these labels and consider themselves as followers of Christ, period. It puzzles me to see all these Mennonite groups being slotted into some label of 'conservative' or 'progressive' or whatever and their distinctives spelled out. Where does this have NT roots ?

As far as Holdeman's go, I have found that when you view them as ordinary people trying to serve God, you don't even think of those things. While that is their official position, I've only been condemned by one of them one time, and that was a long time ago. I got an apology for that from one of their leaders about that later. The man in charge of their publishing house in Kansas contacted me about what I would recommend for a Bible version to use in prison work. He and I had an ongoing correspondence that lasted several years, since we were in a similar occupation at that time. He is one of their highly esteemed leaders and he told me that he has no problem viewing me as a fellow Christian. The main area that we disagreed with each other was in divorce and remarriage. And even there our conversation was congenial.

Yet unless they denounce the 'one true church' belief, I think outsiders will continue to see them as being elite minded. Like the EO or RC or whoever, if their statements of faith say they are the 'one true church', then to the others this will sound elite, I would think.

Often when some people post here and say things like we don't allow TV watching or youtube or playing mixed volleyball or men wearing short pants, etc, etc., I get the impression that this is a competition on who has the most stringent rules which in other words, who follows Christ the best. That sounds to me like being in an elite class of Christians. It may be that the motive is to have a practise to best represent Christianity but to bring it up does sound elite. I grew up in what I call Pentecostal eliteism. No Anabaptist was at that level of Spirit filled, set apart, tongues speaking, soul winning, God fearing level of Christianity. We were at the top. And pride comes before a fall, which for many it has.

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