How Involved is God in Politics?

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Dan Z
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How Involved is God in Politics?

Post by Dan Z »

In the thread on President Trump, Josh said the following:
Josh wrote: I don’t really care a lot about American democracy or the constitution since I think God is in charge of rulers and nations, not voters.


I think that is a common perception, particularly among Conservative Christians...that it is God, not voters, who raises up leaders and directs their choices. I think there is a Biblical case to be made for this perspective. Recently, I've heard this point of view promoted by many, including some prominent Evangelical leaders, in gratefulness that God has chosen Donald Trump for "such a time as this."

I even saw this banner on the Facebook homepage of a very vocal Trump supporter (of Mennonite background I believe :) ). Not sure if the banner was some sort of satire or not, but the image of Christ's guiding hand got me thinking:

Image

I suppose this perspective applied to Obama as well...that God put Obama in power to serve His holy purposes - I know some liberal-minded Christians and Christians in the black community who certainly felt that way (although they might not have framed it with the same fatalism). I know some conservatives as well who, in response to Obama, pointed to Pharaoh and Ahab as times when God's guy was put in place as a punishment instead of a reward.
  • So...how involved is God in the affairs of men?

    How involved do you think God is in North American politics?

    Is God letting people make their choice, or is He doing the choosing (and letting voters just think they made the choice)?

    What about a leader's legislative choices - does God ever intervene at that level? If so, who hasn't he fixed abortion?

    Does God determine the length of a leader's tenure in a position...or how popular they become?

    When we pray for our leaders, what should we pray for? What results should be expect?
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Sudsy
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Re: How Involved is God in Politics?

Post by Sudsy »

Dan Z wrote:
  • So...how involved is God in the affairs of men?

    I lean more towards a more open view that God gave man choice and primarily allows man to chose and experience the consequences of those choices. God can intervene wherever and whenever He chooses and our prayers can affect the choices man makes when we pray according to His will.

    How involved do you think God is in North American politics?

    Not very if any. I believe God is not stymied in any way by man's political choices to bring about His sovereign will for mankind.

    Is God letting people make their choice, or is He doing the choosing (and letting voters just think they made the choice)?

    Imo, God basically allows man to choose and yet there is influence on the choices man makes through prayer. I believe for a Christian our primary role is in praying for our leaders.

    What about a leader's legislative choices - does God ever intervene at that level? If so, who hasn't he fixed abortion?

    I think through prayer God can impact choices made but primarily our freedom to make choices is not altered. What we sow we reap.

    Does God determine the length of a leader's tenure in a position...or how popular they become?

    Again, my view of how God operates sovereignly is more hands off as God can work out His purposes regardless of who is in leadership for how long. Donald Trump or Hitler or anyone else is ultimately not in control of this world.

    When we pray for our leaders, what should we pray for? What results should be expect?

    I think scripture says to pray for a peaceful life and one that enables God's will to be on earth as it is in Heaven. Paul wrote in 1 Timothy 2:1–4, “I urge, then, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for all people—for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.”
    So, God's desire is for all to be saved and know the truth. This is where we come into play. Pray and live out Gospel truth. What should we expect ? That through prayer we have open doors to spread the Gospel. All other issues like abortion and racism are solvable by people becoming new creations.
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Joy
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Re: How Involved is God in Politics?

Post by Joy »

Dan 4:13 I saw in the visions of my head upon my bed, and, behold, a watcher and an holy one came down from heaven;
Dan 4:14 He cried aloud, and said thus, ...
Dan 4:17 This matter is by the decree of the watchers, and the demand by the word of the holy ones: to the intent that the living may know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will, and setteth up over it the basest of men.
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Dan Z
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Re: How Involved is God in Politics?

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Joy wrote:Dan 4:13 I saw in the visions of my head upon my bed, and, behold, a watcher and an holy one came down from heaven;
Dan 4:14 He cried aloud, and said thus, ...
Dan 4:17 This matter is by the decree of the watchers, and the demand by the word of the holy ones: to the intent that the living may know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will, and setteth up over it the basest of men.
So Joy, how do you see this play out? You've quoted scripture - but how do you apply it in your thinking/beliefs?

Does God choose the rulers he wants at a particular time, or does he give people room to make that decision?

Is voting simply an exercise in vanity then - making people think they have a choice when they actually don't?

Does God appoint Supreme Court members - like those who in 1972 overturned the abortion prohibitions?

Is every ruler put in by God? Trump? Obama? Chavez? Churchill? Hitler?

Does that make God somehow responsible for their choices?
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Re: How Involved is God in Politics?

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A lot of people in my church are fasting and praying for the Congo from Monday-Wednesday this week, praying for a Christian university with many branches into the community, and praying for a stable government to be established so they can do their work safely. We are asking God to intervene.

I lived in Berlin when the wall came down, and most of my German friends are from the East. I am reasonably familiar with what life looked like for them. I spent a lot of time talking to older people who had lived in Germany during World War II, too.

I am completely convinced that God is in control, but I also think that some forms of government are much better for the people than others and that modern democracy is better than some other forms of government.

I don't know why God allows bad government in places where the people are really suffering, but in those places, I do pray that God will intervene. I don't tell him what to do or how to do it, he knows that better than I do. And I pray especially where God's work is being hindered.
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Re: How Involved is God in Politics?

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1 Tim 2 wrote:I urge, then, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for all people — for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all people.
Government matters so that we can live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness, and that's a factor if we want people to be saved and come to knowledge of the truth. That's how I read this verse.

If our political involvement leads to lives that are not peaceful, quiet, godly, and holy, we're doing the wrong thing. And an awful lot of politics is about building divisive factions. But this verse implies that Christians should care about the government, certainly in prayer.

Back then voting wasn't an option, governments were established by the sword and the people were given no choice. I don't think the Bible tells us whether New Testament Christians would have voted, they didn't have that option, voting is very different from speaking up to Herod or Pilate. I definitely agree that Jesus didn't do much of that at all.
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Sudsy
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Re: How Involved is God in Politics?

Post by Sudsy »

How are these two texts reconciled ?

[bible]1 Timothy 2,1-4[/bible] and [bible]Mathew 10,34-36[/bible]

Are we to pray for quiet and peaceful lives when Jesus said we would be in a battle even within our families ? I don't think the Christian life is one of peace and quiet in the sense of being left alone in the comfort of our faith communities and/or living under a political system that has the answer to world peace. However, there is a peace and quiet in the midst of the storm. A peace not as the world knows peace but a peace that only God can give.

Also, this 2 Timothy text says be thankful for all people including one such as Donald Trump. So, in what way can a Christian be thankful during the rule of a Trump or a Hitler when in the natural they may not at all be thankful ? Imo, this goes back to what James says regarding being joyful and confident in these trials as they are the opportunity to develop character in us. I'm not thankful for the sins man commits but can be thankful that God loves them just as He loves me and does not want them to perish either.

Explanations ? Comments ? Disagreements ?
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Dan Z
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Re: How Involved is God in Politics?

Post by Dan Z »

Sudsy wrote:Are we to pray for quiet and peaceful lives when Jesus said we would be in a battle even within our families ? I don't think the Christian life is one of peace and quiet in the sense of being left alone in the comfort of our faith communities and/or living under a political system that has the answer to world peace. However, there is a peace and quiet in the midst of the storm. A peace not as the world knows peace but a peace that only God can give.
This is good Sudsy...eternal peace (the peace Christ offers) is the foundation of gold, silver and precious stones that will endure the fire and last forever. I also agree that we not be selfish in our praying - that's not the example Jesus set for us.

But there is much suffering and injustice in the world that governments can either exacerbate or alleviate. Is it somehow wrong for Christians to pray that governments and leaders be just an honorable (or become so if they are not)? Especially if we are praying on behalf the poor and oppressed and victimized of the world?
[Also, this 2 Timothy text says be thankful for all people including one such as Donald Trump. So, in what way can a Christian be thankful during the rule of a Trump or a Hitler when in the natural they may not at all be thankful ? Imo, this goes back to what James says regarding being joyful and confident in these trials as they are the opportunity to develop character in us. I'm not thankful for the sins man commits but can be thankful that God loves them just as He loves me and does not want them to perish either.
Good word here. I suppose I can grieve for the wrongs that are done to God's children and at the same time "count it all joy" that in suffering I share in the sufferings of Christ.
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Re: How Involved is God in Politics?

Post by Bootstrap »

Sudsy wrote:How are these two texts reconciled ?
That's an excellent question! Here's how I currently understand some of this, my opinion may change as I learn in this thread.
Are we to pray for quiet and peaceful lives when Jesus said we would be in a battle even within our families ?
I think that's what the text tells us: "I urge, then, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for all people — for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. This is good, and pleases God our Savior ..."

And note that it's not just for "kings and all those in authority" (elites?), but also for "all people".
I don't think the Christian life is one of peace and quiet in the sense of being left alone in the comfort of our faith communities and/or living under a political system that has the answer to world peace.
Of course not. And right now, my brethren in the Congo are turning to God for that peace under very trying times. Yet, I think Paul did tell us to pray for rulers in order to be able to live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness.
However, there is a peace and quiet in the midst of the storm. A peace not as the world knows peace but a peace that only God can give.
Absolutely. And my brethren in the Congo are giving amazing testimonies along those lines.
Also, this 2 Timothy text says be thankful for all people including one such as Donald Trump. So, in what way can a Christian be thankful during the rule of a Trump or a Hitler when in the natural they may not at all be thankful?
Well, first off, I'm grateful that Donald Trump is not Adolph Hitler! But I really do take Paul's instructions literally, offering prayer and thanksgiving for any leader that I am under. And I am grateful for some of the changes that affect religious freedom under Donald Trump.
Explanations ? Comments ? Disagreements ?
I hope others will weigh in.
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Re: How Involved is God in Politics?

Post by MaxPC »

Dan, I don't think God cares one whit about politics which is a woefully broken process in all human governments throughout history. Instead I believe God cares for each individual as a son or daughter and is involved in everyone's life. God is that powerful and that big. We cause our own personal suffering in one way or another, whether it's through lack of trust in God, an unwillingness to seek help, or both. There is help available at most churches.

The politicians constantly sell the idea that only government can provide for the social justice needs. Politicians only want to keep their jobs and social status.

Intercessory prayer is a beautiful communication with God and we are promised that God responds to prayer. It may be in ways we do not expect but He does indeed respond. Time and again throughout human history governments and their politics wax and wane, disappearing from the earth. God remains and the next generation of His disciples continue His message.
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