Re: POLL: Relating to Power: The Christian and Politics
Posted: Fri Nov 25, 2016 12:37 pm
Joshuabgood...I'm enjoying thinking this through with you...and learning from your perspective. Thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts in depth.
I guess I'm really reacting most to the idea that we Christians are simply to address sin and injustice at the individual level. I think there is both OT and NT evidence for both individual and corporate prophetic voice...and individual and corporate recipients of rebuke.
This is good...and we are probably closer than you think. We would certainly be in accord in how we view God's government vis a vis the governments of this world. The foundations are entirely different - and I definitely don't believe God is "making all things new" with the help of secular governments. If one takes Romans 13 at face value, governments are ordained of God simply to keep a lid on things in a fallen and violent world - until God's agenda is complete and his Kingdom comes in fullness.
I'm not saying that the cause of Christ can be advanced through government coercion (you and I are both on the opposite end of the POLL from the Theonomy option), but I believe that we who are privy to Christ's ethics of love and justice should be willing, at times, to speak up in the face of grave injustice and oppression - if for no other reason than to speak on behalf of the oppressed, and to perhaps lessen the suffering of some of those Jesus clearly loves deeply.
I'll agree that there is a clear danger in Christians thinking that we can advance the Kingdom agenda by co-opting the power of the state - but, on the other hand, there seems to be culpability in not doing our part to speak up for the way of love in the face of wrong, especially if, even in a small way, it helps keep the state in check and limits some suffering while the Kingdom of God advances. Additionally, this seems to be one means by which we can bear witness to the reality of a better way in Jesus.
I guess I'm really reacting most to the idea that we Christians are simply to address sin and injustice at the individual level. I think there is both OT and NT evidence for both individual and corporate prophetic voice...and individual and corporate recipients of rebuke.
We are certainly of one heart here.joshuabgood wrote:When I say building the kingdom of God I am not talking about a "pie in the sky when we die." The Kingdom of God is on earth and now, I would argue. Therefore, yes building the kingdom means inviting people to immigrate to our kingdom as well as working humanitarian efforts to improve our society and neighbors lots as you describe. That is just as real a part of building the kingdom of God as is the "invitation to immigrate."
It is the foundation and means of the Kingdoms of this world that I reject completely, that being, an ethic of violence and oppression. The reign of God is not in the kingdoms of this world...One might argue, as I am, they have no legitimate role in the reign of God. That is probably where I part ways with you. I see them as evil, and based on violence. And I think you may see them more as helping to usher in peace and equity. I see the reign of God and the Kingdom being nonviolent and based in a law of love and gospel of peace.
This is good...and we are probably closer than you think. We would certainly be in accord in how we view God's government vis a vis the governments of this world. The foundations are entirely different - and I definitely don't believe God is "making all things new" with the help of secular governments. If one takes Romans 13 at face value, governments are ordained of God simply to keep a lid on things in a fallen and violent world - until God's agenda is complete and his Kingdom comes in fullness.
- 1 Cor 15: 24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet.
- Isaiah 9: 6 For to us a child is born,to us a son is given;and the government shall be upon his shoulder,
and his name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
7 Of the increase of his government and of peace there will be no end, on the throne of David and over his kingdom, to establish it and to uphold it with justice and with righteousness from this time forth and forevermore.
In answer to your question - at the macro level, no, I can't think of an essentially just and equitable government...but some governments are plainly more just and equitable than others. And conversely, some governments are less just, less equitable - and therefore are more likely to oppress and victimize.Lastly as a historical or empirical question, I would challenge you to answer what kingdom of this world (read state) is doing a "righteous" job of wielding violence in a way to establish equity and peace? When was the USA, or any other country such a state? I would argue the evidence is pretty convincing, never. There are always peoples groups who are marginalized and on the wrong side of the guns. That kingdom can't exist without violence.
I'm not saying that the cause of Christ can be advanced through government coercion (you and I are both on the opposite end of the POLL from the Theonomy option), but I believe that we who are privy to Christ's ethics of love and justice should be willing, at times, to speak up in the face of grave injustice and oppression - if for no other reason than to speak on behalf of the oppressed, and to perhaps lessen the suffering of some of those Jesus clearly loves deeply.
I'll agree that there is a clear danger in Christians thinking that we can advance the Kingdom agenda by co-opting the power of the state - but, on the other hand, there seems to be culpability in not doing our part to speak up for the way of love in the face of wrong, especially if, even in a small way, it helps keep the state in check and limits some suffering while the Kingdom of God advances. Additionally, this seems to be one means by which we can bear witness to the reality of a better way in Jesus.
Glad you recognize this.As for speaking...yes we should do it in social groups. Or more specifically as a citizens of another kingdom.
"Systems" also don't have physical ears, but the people within them do have both ears to hear, and wills to decide right and wrong. Speaking prophetically to systems is, at its core, speaking to groups of people.However, it should be said to people who actually hear. Not to "systems" that have no volitional power.
Perhaps our role in relationship to the world's systems is that of referee - not telling the nations how to play the game, but being willing to throw a flag when they clearly are out of bounds - and especially when the foul is committed against "the least of these," who are usually the most powerless and voiceless.I think what I am critiquing is the notion that we should lecture the kingdoms of this world (which we reject) on how to develop fair and equitable policies. They can't and won't do it. Their whole foundation is wrong. We waste our breath and energy. Once again I think the historical data is pretty clear on this as well as hopefully my philosophical argument.