Amish Salve-maker in Jail, Facing Federal Prison

Events occurring and how they relate/affect Anabaptist faith and culture.
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mike
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Re: Amish Salve-maker in Jail, Facing Federal Prison

Postby mike » Fri Feb 17, 2017 1:17 pm

KingdomBuilder wrote:Things that are, naturally, good remedies have a way of getting around. If a product works, word of mouth will do the advertising you can't legally put on a bottle.
For example, many natural (non-synthetic) products can be found at farm supply stores that are geared towards horses, fish, etc. I know many who use these proven-safe (what some may call) "snake oils" to help with all sorts of topical, joint, dental, viral, and muscular problems.
It sounds risky to outsiders, but when you realize the mechanisms by which many of these products work, there's not a cause for worry.
Another hot example would be cider vinegar. Many people make wondrous claims for the stuff, but you don't see cider vinegar bottles lined with claims of curing various illnesses. Yet it's still selling like hot cakes.


But not just any cider vinegar. It has to be Organic Apple Cider Vinegar WITH THE MOTHER. :mrgreen:

This is definitely a hot health food trend these days, although it's not a new trend. It is truly amazing how well the stuff is selling. A year or two it was coconut oil. We could barely keep it on the shelves. It's still a good item but the craze has passed. Sometimes it is flax seed, or almonds, or some other product that makes its rounds.
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Dan Z
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Re: Amish Salve-maker in Jail, Facing Federal Prison

Postby Dan Z » Fri Feb 17, 2017 1:22 pm

There is something to be said for grandma's remedies - folk wisdom - and the freedom to use "natural" remedies.

There is also something to be said for regulating untested claims, and the value of empirical research if grandma decides to make a living off of her remedies.
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Re: Amish Salve-maker in Jail, Facing Federal Prison

Postby Wade » Fri Feb 17, 2017 1:35 pm

Dan Z wrote:There is something to be said for grandma's remedies - folk wisdom - and the freedom to use "natural" remedies.

There is also something to be said for regulating untested claims, and the value of empirical research if grandma decides to make a living off of her remedies.


I agree. But one other thing to consider: We see these big drug companies get fined billions of dollars in selling drugs that they intentionally lied about in testing to make profit. They have many more billions of dollars they had profited from selling those products so really the scenario's are completely different.
This Amish man gets put in jail when in reality if he was treated with an equal fine to his worth compared to the big drug companies; what would be said then?
Because no one is put in jail and it is only a fine to these big drug companies when they intentional lie we just brush it off as no big deal like how we treat politicians in expecting it? But if grandma does it then we expect more action?
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appleman2006
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Re: Amish Salve-maker in Jail, Facing Federal Prison

Postby appleman2006 » Fri Feb 17, 2017 2:03 pm

Wade I do not know the whole story regarding the Amish man but if things work in his area like they do in ours you do not get stuck in jail the very first time the authorities approach you to address a problem. Jail is usually a last resort after other avenues have been tried to achieve compliance.
If in fact that did not happen I am much more sympathetic to the Amish guy.
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Re: Amish Salve-maker in Jail, Facing Federal Prison

Postby appleman2006 » Fri Feb 17, 2017 2:09 pm

Wade wrote:Imagine a poor person that is diligent in trying to care for himself and his family. However they do have support in time of need from secular sources.
Now imagine another group rejects that help but has more available resources to take care of themselves being a group. "God has provided," they say.
Eventually health issues come up with children having cavities and abscess teeth in the group but it is okay they pay for it and are "responsible."(They have things like a big jar of candy for the children in the school on the teachers desk.) Meanwhile the other family doesn't have these problems, although they still don't have perfect health by any means but they pray to God and try to be responsible in taking care before problems by proving all things looking for truth and trying to be wise stewards even though limited.

One of the leaders of the group finally approaches the poor man and says that since he is signed up to receive help if he needs it that he is really concerned that the poor man might be irresponsible by relying on the same system he is using but is different because he isn't paying for it by himself.

There is something deeper here I am trying to expose...


This is a true story and I'll let you guess who the newcomer poor family was with health insurance attending an ultra-conservative church...


I am sure it is me but I am not sure I get the point. If you are saying that the church was being hard on the poor man for having health insurance of some sort I am totally unsupportive of a church that would do or say that. If you are advocating the fact that families should live as healthy as possible so as not to need as many health remedies I also support that. But I have a feeling I am totally missing your point and I take the blame for that.
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Re: Amish Salve-maker in Jail, Facing Federal Prison

Postby Wade » Fri Feb 17, 2017 2:15 pm

appleman2006 wrote:Wade I do not know the whole story regarding the Amish man but if things work in his area like they do in ours you do not get stuck in jail the very first time the authorities approach you to address a problem. Jail is usually a last resort after other avenues have been tried to achieve compliance.
If in fact that did not happen I am much more sympathetic to the Amish guy.


I wasn't trying to defend him and am disappointed very much by this story relating to a poor Christian witness... And I agree with you, I was just bringing out the mentality that exists in the world now-a-days that some how there are no people responsible within an organization when terribly wrong things are done. But if it is the little guy that can pointed at then he doesn't fair to well. Not accusing anyone here of having that mentality either it is just something that I need to be careful of.
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appleman2006
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Re: Amish Salve-maker in Jail, Facing Federal Prison

Postby appleman2006 » Fri Feb 17, 2017 2:25 pm

Wade wrote:
appleman2006 wrote:Wade I do not know the whole story regarding the Amish man but if things work in his area like they do in ours you do not get stuck in jail the very first time the authorities approach you to address a problem. Jail is usually a last resort after other avenues have been tried to achieve compliance.
If in fact that did not happen I am much more sympathetic to the Amish guy.


I wasn't trying to defend him and am disappointed very much by this story relating to a poor Christian witness... And I agree with you, I was just bringing out the mentality that exists in the world now-a-days that some how there are no people responsible within an organization when terribly wrong things are done. But if it is the little guy that can pointed at then he doesn't fair to well. Not accusing anyone here of having that mentality either it is just something that I need to be careful of.


Fair enough.
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mike
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Re: Amish Salve-maker in Jail, Facing Federal Prison

Postby mike » Fri Feb 17, 2017 2:28 pm

Wade wrote:
Dan Z wrote:There is something to be said for grandma's remedies - folk wisdom - and the freedom to use "natural" remedies.

There is also something to be said for regulating untested claims, and the value of empirical research if grandma decides to make a living off of her remedies.


I agree. But one other thing to consider: We see these big drug companies get fined billions of dollars in selling drugs that they intentionally lied about in testing to make profit. They have many more billions of dollars they had profited from selling those products so really the scenario's are completely different.
This Amish man gets put in jail when in reality if he was treated with an equal fine to his worth compared to the big drug companies; what would be said then?
Because no one is put in jail and it is only a fine to these big drug companies when they intentional lie we just brush it off as no big deal like how we treat politicians in expecting it? But if grandma does it then we expect more action?


For every grandma and grandpa that gets in trouble for marketing a home-made remedy there are dozens that do it and are never bothered by the government. Because they are careful with the claims they make about their products, not only on the labels but on other marketing materials like brochures. And many of these grandpa-and-grandma products end up being successful commercially.

A few examples in the salve category:
Unker's Salve
Union Salve
Porter's Salve

I sell all of these and many more similar products in my store. Now ask yourself, how is it that these other salves, which like Sam Girod's salve are NOT evaluated by the FDA, are able to be freely marketed, while he goes to jail? There are some things we're not being told about his story by the websites that are clamoring and soliciting signatures to petition for his release. Other individuals and companies sell "natural" or "Home-made" products all the time without going to jail for it. If Girod had cooperated with the government and followed applicable laws, and was being singled out unfairly, he would have my sympathy. But I am not convinced that was the case.

Notice this from Porter's salve home page: "The original name was changed from Porter's Pain King Salve to its current name, due to a request from the FDA. The reference to liniment was made because this salve was formulated from the Porter's original product, liquid Porter's Liniment."

Other people do this stuff all the time and don't get into trouble. Another example of a health product is Yoder's Good Health Tonic. The website, labeling, and marketing materials are very careful not to make health claims in order to comply with the law. However, from my experience with talking to the distributors of this product at trade shows, they will tell you verbally that it helps with arthritis and many other problems. But they know better than to put that in print. Personally I think many of the claims are exaggerated and possibly even bogus anyway, but who am I to argue with anecdotal evidence. I sell stuff like this because people ask for it and want it. If they feel it makes their lives better in some way, good for them.

But the point is, there is absolutely a way to market "natural" or "health" products that passes muster with the FDA.

Now, there are natural substances that are not able to be sold because of they are naturally hazardous to humans - such as one of the ingredients in Girod's TO-MOR-Gon salve. Another example of a potentially hazardous natural product is real sassafras root, which is alleged to have blood thinning and carcinogenic properties, and is not legal to be sold as a tea product. It is typically sold as a "craft" item. But real sassafras root is not available commercially for that reason. You can buy it on Etsy or eBay. Drink at your own risk.
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Remember the prisoners, as though you were in prison with them, and the mistreated, as though you yourselves were suffering bodily. -Heb. 13:3

Wade
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Re: Amish Salve-maker in Jail, Facing Federal Prison

Postby Wade » Fri Feb 17, 2017 3:37 pm

appleman2006 wrote:There are very good reasons why making health claims is so heavily regulated. The damage that can and does occur when people are sent down the wrong rabbit hole in search of a cure is very real and I have heard doctors and nurses lament over and over how devastating it is to have a patient come to them as a last resort after they have tried every other means when if they had come earlier there chances of a cure would of been much higher.


I agree.

appleman2006 wrote:You are also aware I am sure that all medication is simply a bunch of natural things which are mixed together to form the desired drug or effect. Sometimes it is only a couple of ingredients. More often it is many things mixed together. And after many millions of dollars in research they figure out a chemical or procedure that works. And the only way they get consistency is to test each of the products going into the mixture to ensure that the right and needed properties are there.


I agree. Note: "many millions of dollars"

appleman2006 wrote:I disagree that you could not do the same with one single natural product. Often with enough testing and sorting out you could get a consistent product but it would add tremendously to the cost of the product which would in fact make them not as attractive.
In a way though you defeat your own argument when you state that natural products are not consistent. If that is true than it is because they do not spend the time and money needed to test the properties properly which means they can in no way guarantee the product or make the very claims they want to claim it does.


I think this is where the breakdown happens. I have looked into this and probably didn't explain myself well enough. There are variables within every test that need to be "controlled" for the FDA to be satisfied with exact consistency . Each natural product in fact is different. We can see that with our eyes that they have different looks to them - like humans. What happens with natural products is when I grow vegetables in my garden their are certain nutrients in the soil that are used to grow the plant. There are certain temperatures and amounts or sunlight and rain, that happen during the process of that plants growth. Therefore what we see happen is different concentrations of vitamins and even "impurities" within each individual plant because of environmental differences - there are processes that take place that break things down and a carrot is a carrot but yet not all are the exact same. The apples that grow on the property where we live have a different (even if it isn't only slight difference) vitamin and mineral content as the ones that grow on your property. Natural environments are not "controlled." The guidelines within regulations can be small enough to the point that they cannot okay a product in Ontario as curing cancer because even if it has been proven because if I go and make that product in BC it may in fact not have the same effect or exact amount of the vitamins but yet still contain the same "ingredients"... Now imagine all the variables with all the different climates all over the world, cross pollination's, adaptations, etc...
Eventually you could get to the point that one is using only artificial lighting, chemical soils or none at all but constant liquid chemicals feeding the plants, etc. in developing a very consistent nutrient amount in a natural product - but in fact does not really fit the "natural" definition of what people are looking for anymore and also could be more costly anyway(as you said).
And like I said earlier it is accepted as scientific fact by scientists that an element that is not identifiably different to them in comparing one naturally made and the other chemically made actually can react different when placed in solutions for testing. Makes it even harder to get certification from FDA.

appleman2006 wrote:And I am sorry. To argue that you could not make money selling a natural product that works and has been properly approved makes no sense at all to me.


I hope I addressed this sufficiently above...?

appleman2006 wrote:Even many so called natural medicines at this point have several ingredients mixed together. Mixing plants and minerals together for medicinal purposes is almost as old as time itself.

Of course. :clap:

appleman2006 wrote:Thankfully the process is a lot more scientific today due to the fact that we are able to break down an individual product's properties much more precisely than in previous times.


I agree. But we would do well not to disregard synergistic qualities that God has placed together within natural products that are often overlooked or not tested. Not to say that all natural products are good either - we live in a fallen world. However this has also confused a lot of people that don't understand science much.
I have heard people say, "Chlorine is poison, and should never be consumed!"
You don't find many people saying, "Don't eat sodium chloride, it has poisonous chlorine in it that should never be consumed!"
(For those who don't know I am talking about sodium chloride is salt - if we don't have salt the synapses in our bodies cannot happen - without it we die.)

I have read enough about intentional lies on both sides of natural and mainstream health products with years of looking into things before becoming a Christian and both are used for evil. We would do well to be like the Berean's and take an honest look ourselves at some of the facts and consider is what I want to say.

Lots of deceit and twisting of science happening to prove a point - just like anyone can allow or condemn just about anything from scripture...

I am very concerned by what I see in some conservative churches (not all and not anyone on here) with telling me they trust God with their health while just believing whatever mainstream secular science says about health, while the secular sources are saying out the other side of their mouth about evolution taking place... Not to say that because they fail at some points that they have it all wrong either... But there is a progressive attitude in not being responsible that can be seen. At the same time my family does use and need mainstream health products too.

We need to work out our own health and be responsible for it. When we eat junk and don't live a healthy lifestyle and then take the mainstream drugs to get quick fixes I just don't see the consistency or even the trust in God? I have learned this the hard way... I see others doing the same and maybe I should let them learn that way too?...

And if working for the kingdom doesn't give you the time to look into things then ignore this and continue on. :wave:
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Hats Off
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Re: Amish Salve-maker in Jail, Facing Federal Prison

Postby Hats Off » Fri Feb 17, 2017 4:15 pm

I would guess this Amish man may be from a more conservative Amish group. I read recently that a Schwartzentruber man said "if they require that of us, we just won't do it." I think we need to pick our battles carefully - we need to differentiate between issues relating to economics and issues relating to religion. Being required to following labelling laws has nothing to do with religion. Improper marketing by a small Amish business is no different than improper marketing by a billion dollar conglomerate - it is all an attempt to sell product.

i would like to only use "natural healing methods" if I could be convinced that the products work as well as or better than the drugs from the pharmaceutical companies. I find that I have to choose who I will work with, my doctor, or someone whose credentials I don't know. My doctor is one who doesn't mind looking at alternatives to supporting big pharma - he will advise of lifestyle changes that can be made. However, he doesn't in particular like Dr. Google and who can blame him?

i think I understand what you are saying, Wade, and I don't disagree but I just don't have enough time or ability to sort through all of Dr. Google to determine who and what is right. I understand the whole idea of overkill by the FDA and others. However, if I expect my doctor to help me, I need to pay attention to what he says and avoid too much mixing of various types of remedies. We did recently resort to the burdock leaf treatment along with the salve that goes with it, for treatment of a dog bite, but only after I was not happy with the results my wife was obtaining from antibiotics. The injury healed with the burdock leaf treatment, but it may also have healed with time without the burdock treatment.
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