Walk Up, Not Out

[MaxPC]

Looks like this thread is vying to beat the climate change thread.

NEVER!!

Over my dead body, right?

[Bootstrap]

There is no constitutional argument against the things that the Parkland students are asking for or the laws passed in Illinois or Massachusetts. Here's Justice Scalia's Heller decision:

2. Like most rights, the Second Amendment right is not unlimited. It is not a right to keep and carry any weapon whatsoever in any manner whatsoever and for whatever purpose: For example, concealed weapons prohibitions have been upheld under the Amendment or state analogues. The Court’s opinion should not be taken to cast doubt on longstanding prohibitions on the possession of firearms by felons and the mentally ill, or laws forbidding the carrying of firearms in sensitive places such as schools and government buildings, or laws imposing conditions and qualifications on the commercial sale of arms. Miller’s holding that the sorts of weapons protected are those “in common use at the time” finds support in the historical tradition of prohibiting the carrying of dangerous and unusual weapons.

The District’s total ban on handgun possession in the home amounts to a prohibition on an entire class of “arms” that Americans overwhelmingly choose for the lawful purpose of self-defense. Under any of the standards of scrutiny the Court has applied to enumerated constitutional rights, this prohibition—in the place where the importance of the lawful defense of self, family, and property is most acute—would fail constitutional muster. Similarly, the requirement that any lawful firearm in the home be disassembled or bound by a trigger lock makes it impossible for citizens to use arms for the core lawful purpose of self-defense and is hence unconstitutional. Because Heller conceded at oral argument that the D. C. licensing law is permissible if it is not enforced arbitrarily and capriciously, the Court assumes that a license will satisfy his prayer for relief and does not address the licensing requirement. Assuming he is not disqualified from exercising Second Amendment rights, the District must permit Heller to register his handgun and must issue him a license to carry it in the home.

This was considered a breakthrough for the NRA at the time because it said that every citizen must be allowed to have a handgun, if he has a license and registers the gun. It clearly says that licenses and registration can be required, the kinds of guns allowed can be limited to those commonly used to defend self, family, and property, there can be limitations on felons and the mentally ill, there can be limitations on where guns can be carried, etc.

These are things that the Parkland students are asking us to consider. These things were not controversial at all 30 years ago. No Supreme Court has ever ruled against this kind of thing.

In a Democracy, we should start by looking for policies that are constitutional, likely to help, and have public support. Graphs like this are helpful for identifying such policies:



Most of these policies basically acknowledge that guns are potentially dangerous and can kill people. Cars require licenses and registration for just that reason, and there are restrictions on the cars you can buy.

[temporal1]

from my tiny view, i would be most impressed with the Parkland students, and that greater community, focusing on the abundant+specific failures that directly enabled Nik Cruz.

i am least impressed with these folks going on a pre-scripted national mission, funded with partisan/tribal dollars, to accomplish it.

if, after they investigate and correct their school/community problems .. which may be found to go all the way to the FBI, and, school policies put in place by former politicians ..
then, let that be known. after they know something, they may be in a position to offer insights to the broader country.

the formula at play here, reminds very much of how politics played-out, after the Dylann Roof murders. people were murdered by a deranged young man ..
politicians jumped on the opportunity (they shamelessly used the tragedy as a political opportunity) to begin nation-wide removal of various flags+monuments - at great expense to, ahem, law-abiding legal citizens. like, Mark Robinson.

the thing with political formulas is, they establish patterns that can be recognized by ordinary people. ordinary people eventually put 2+2 together, and, learn not to trust or respect.
like, Mark Robinson.

First: Investigate ALL the sacred cows:

”How federal funding kept Nikolas Cruz from getting arrested and unable to purchase firearms”
https://www.americanthinker.com/blog/20 ... earms.html

“Obama policies to end ‘schoolhouse-to-jailhouse pipeline’ helped keep Nikolas Cruz off police radar”
https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/20 ... -obama-po/

You can fool all the people some of the time, and some of the people all the time,
but you cannot fool all the people all the time.
Abraham Lincoln
Read more at: https://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/abra ... oln_110340

[Josh]

What's up with the focus on AR-15s?

Maybe we should focus on:

- Gas operated firearms
- .223 calibre
- 5.56 calibre
- Smokeless powder
- Anything else designed by Eugene Stoner
- Anything that is painted black

If we get rid of AR-15s, we'll have something else to replace it. Focusing on technical details of instruments of death seems like a dead end. Instead, we should focus on what's going on with the finger pulling the trigger, or lighting the fuse, or sending the text message to detonate an IED, or turning the steering wheel to drive a vehicle into pedestrians.

[Josh]

Most of these policies basically acknowledge that guns are potentially dangerous and can kill people. Cars require licenses and registration for just that reason, and there are restrictions on the cars you can buy.

When I lived in southern California, lots of people (particularly undocumented immigrants) drove cars without licences and with expired registrations and no insurance - in other words, completely outside of the bounds of the law.

But cars are a reality, and I'm not sure it makes sense to ban cars or to ban undocumented immigrants from being able to drive, and I'm not even sure doing that would be feasible.

More to the point, you haven't addressed that all of the proposals you support would involve confiscation and eventual complete bans on firearms being used for legal purposes by legal, law-abiding owners. You seem to want to put all the burden on law-abiding citizens, which doesn't do anything about the fact that most people shot are done so by an illegal gun owner with an illegal gun.

Doesn't it make sense to do something about illegal guns first? New York State, Illinois, and California lead the country in shootings, and almost always with an illegal gun. Those states are also Democratic bastions, and gun control laws already exist.

Let's see existing gun control laws work better before we force them on all 50 states on people who democratically have chosen not to have such restrictions. If you're against that, I really question just how committed to "democracy" you are. It seems you are more committed to having the coastal elites tell the rest of the country what to do.

[temporal1]

What's up with the focus on AR-15s?

Maybe we should focus on:

- Gas operated firearms
- .223 calibre
- 5.56 calibre
- Smokeless powder
- Anything else designed by Eugene Stoner
- Anything that is painted black

If we get rid of AR-15s, we'll have something else to replace it. Focusing on technical details of instruments of death seems like a dead end. Instead, we should focus on what's going on with the finger pulling the trigger, or lighting the fuse, or sending the text message to detonate an IED, or turning the steering wheel to drive a vehicle into pedestrians.

the point is to establish legal precedence to remove objects/rights.
the starting point/place is insignificant.

not getting confused about the true underlying intent is key.
“give an inch, they take a mile,” has now been proven beyond debate in courts of law.

[Josh]

not getting confused about the true underlying intent is key.
“give an inch, they take a mile,” has now been proven beyond debate in courts of law.

That's the point I keep trying to make - the audience Boot is trying to reach is unreceptive, because they're already used to every inch they give being ridden for a mile. And stunts like pretending a full auto machine gun is an AR-15 don't help.

Lawful gun owners don't want someone who can't tell the difference between a $30,000, highly regulated machine gun and a $400 AR-15 non-automatic passing laws where making a single technical mistake means jail for 20 years.

[temporal1]

Boot, do you think the 1st amendment guarantees a right to abortion?

abortion is at least 100% lethal, and, it is planned+premeditated to be so - at a profit.
how many felonies can be counted in that one sentence? ^^^

abortion may be more than 100% lethal. it’s radically efficient killing.
one abortion often kills twins/triplets, sometimes kills the mother.
i’m not sure how those stats are decided.

an occasional infant might survive a botched abortion.
will it then survive abandoment by abortion staff/mothers/fathers? not usually.
i presume these cases would not change overall stats.

[temporal1]

not getting confused about the true underlying intent is key.
“give an inch, they take a mile,” has now been proven beyond debate in courts of law.

That's the point I keep trying to make - the audience Boot is trying to reach is unreceptive, because they're already used to every inch they give being ridden for a mile. And stunts like pretending a full auto machine gun is an AR-15 don't help.

Lawful gun owners don't want someone who can't tell the difference between a $30,000, highly regulated machine gun and a $400 AR-15 non-automatic passing laws where making a single technical mistake means jail for 20 years.

and, let’s face it. many of the most passionate gun law “activists” (people with microphones) .. might not know a hand gun from a BB gun from an air rifle - they just passionately hate anything that looks like a gun .. including a piece of toast bitten to resemble a gun.

imho, that’s mob hysteria.
and, they are already admitting in public, they have no intention of stopping .. short of repeal of the 2A. because, they don’t own a gun, so, no one else should, either.

[temporal1]

This:
Anthony Borges / Student shot 5 times speaks to deliberate SYSTEM FAILS ordered by gov policy
https://www.theblaze.com/news/2018/04/0 ... n=theblaze

These are not ordinary fails of human nature, these are failures designed+ordered by top-level politicians. Hold them personally accountable.

This is where primary focus needs to be, with clarity.
Stop covering for sacred cows.

To my knowledge, these highly questionable policies remain effective across the country.
If so, review is needed.