Experiencing the Work of the Holy Spirit ?

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ken_sylvania
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Re: Experiencing the Work of the Holy Spirit ?

Post by ken_sylvania »

Josh wrote: The Holdeman answer is one true visible church teaching, although that answer isn’t very popular around here (for example, I was dis-invited from the Seekers’ Gathering unless I am willing to confess my main purpose and goal of being Holdeman is to try to talk 25,000 other people out of this belief).
That's not what Ernie said publicly. Did he tell you this privately?
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Sudsy
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Re: Experiencing the Work of the Holy Spirit ?

Post by Sudsy »

Josh wrote:
Sudsy wrote:From what I understand, ready to be corrected, the idea to "take for granted that the same Holy Spirit is speaking to them" is only if it is in sync with what Holdeman says they are to believe and how they are to practise Christianity. In other words, the guidance of the Spirit is according to how John Holdeman believes he was Spirit lead. Is that correct ?
No.

The idea is that the Holy Spirit doesn’t tell 3 different believers 3 different things and doesn’t conflict with scripture.

As far as what John Holdeman believed, we differ from him in a number of areas. He also never set himself up as Somehow perfect.
Thanks Josh for the corection. I did some more investigating and one of my findings said that decisions for the church are made on a vote at a conference with a certain percent required to adapt or change practises. So, it would seem then that a certain percentage are not being Spirit lead and the COGM are trusting that the majority are Spirit lead even if those who see things differently believe their views do not conflict with scripture. Then these better follow the decision or may be excommunicated.

I suspect you have run across this site but if not, it addresses some of the same concerns I have of some conservative Mennonite groups. Do 25,000 or so COGM Christians make up the 'one true church' ? Millions of other Christians over the centuries would not agree that 99.9+% of them are not Spirit lead. While reading some of this I wondered what the take is then on Romans 14.

Similar sites are out there on charismatics and calvinists and other believers and helps me to look at those who view themselves as 'Holy Spirit lead' from the view of those who disagree. In my youth I was brainwashed, in a sense, to not pay any of these any attention. And I could have been raised JW, Mormon or Muslim with that kind of brainwashing approach. Anyway here is that site.

http://www.theholdemans.com/index.htm
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lesterb
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Re: Experiencing the Work of the Holy Spirit ?

Post by lesterb »

Sudsy wrote:
Josh wrote:
Sudsy wrote:From what I understand, ready to be corrected, the idea to "take for granted that the same Holy Spirit is speaking to them" is only if it is in sync with what Holdeman says they are to believe and how they are to practise Christianity. In other words, the guidance of the Spirit is according to how John Holdeman believes he was Spirit lead. Is that correct ?
No.

The idea is that the Holy Spirit doesn’t tell 3 different believers 3 different things and doesn’t conflict with scripture.

As far as what John Holdeman believed, we differ from him in a number of areas. He also never set himself up as Somehow perfect.
Thanks Josh for the corection. I did some more investigating and one of my findings said that decisions for the church are made on a vote at a conference with a certain percent required to adapt or change practises. So, it would seem then that a certain percentage are not being Spirit lead and the COGM are trusting that the majority are Spirit lead even if those who see things differently believe their views do not conflict with scripture. Then these better follow the decision or may be excommunicated.

I suspect you have run across this site but if not, it addresses some of the same concerns I have of some conservative Mennonite groups. Do 25,000 or so COGM Christians make up the 'one true church' ? Millions of other Christians over the centuries would not agree that 99.9+% of them are not Spirit lead. While reading some of this I wondered what the take is then on Romans 14.

Similar sites are out there on charismatics and calvinists and other believers and helps me to look at those who view themselves as 'Holy Spirit lead' from the view of those who disagree. In my youth I was brainwashed, in a sense, to not pay any of these any attention. And I could have been raised JW, Mormon or Muslim with that kind of brainwashing approach. Anyway here is that site.

http://www.theholdemans.com/index.htm
Sudsy, there are sites like that about Charity as well. And about Amish, and probably others that I'm not aware of. They always zero in on the worst and seldom give the view of the majority of people within the group. The sleeping preacher people would be another group like that. But when people have genuine belief in God and the Bible, God has a foot in the door that can't be denied. Most such groups have a quiet movement in the right direction and we do more good to pray then to denigrate. I realize that the people who put together this site are trying in their own way to help. But I don't think that the Spirit can't work in such groups if we give Him the time He needs. Sometimes God speaks in a still small voice and accomplishes more than all the earthquakes we would put together to shake people up.
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Re: Experiencing the Work of the Holy Spirit ?

Post by Wayne in Maine »

Sudsy wrote:
Josh wrote:
Wayne in Maine wrote:I have always been impressed by the fact that the church, immediately after being filled with the Holy Spirit at Pentecost, was "of one heart and of one mind".

I believe God's Spirit will speak, on a matter for the assembly, with one voice to everyone who really is filled with His Spirit. I do not believe God is schizophrenic; I find it easier to believe that fewer of us are filled with the Holy Spirit than we would like to believe or that some of us are not listening to (or are rejecting) the Holy Spirit's voice or that that God is, for His own purposes, being quiet.

We have too little fear at our not hearing God speak with one voice - it should terrify any church.
This is the Holdeman view of the Holy Spirit in a nutshell. The average Holdeman takes it for granted that the same Holy Spirit is speaking to them personally in their quiet time, to the rest of their family, to their brotherhood and local church leaders, and then conference wide.
From what I understand, ready to be corrected, the idea to "take for granted that the same Holy Spirit is speaking to them" is only if it is in sync with what Holdeman says they are to believe and how they are to practise Christianity. In other words, the guidance of the Spirit is according to how John Holdeman believes he was Spirit lead. Is that correct ?
Josh has answered for his church.

The truly grievous thing about the Bruderhof Communities, of which I was a member, is that this was essentially how things worked. If one disagreed with Christoph Arnold then one was obviously not hearing God's voice. In the end it stifled the Holy Spirit's speaking to the community. It's entirely possible that nearly all the brotherhood members, except Christoph himself, were in true unity hearing God's voice on some occasion or another. But instead of following God's leading everyone chose to agree with Christoph (I saw this anti-consensus at play on several occasions).
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Sudsy
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Re: Experiencing the Work of the Holy Spirit ?

Post by Sudsy »

lesterb wrote: Sudsy, there are sites like that about Charity as well. And about Amish, and probably others that I'm not aware of. They always zero in on the worst and seldom give the view of the majority of people within the group. The sleeping preacher people would be another group like that. But when people have genuine belief in God and the Bible, God has a foot in the door that can't be denied. Most such groups have a quiet movement in the right direction and we do more good to pray then to denigrate. I realize that the people who put together this site are trying in their own way to help. But I don't think that the Spirit can't work in such groups if we give Him the time He needs. Sometimes God speaks in a still small voice and accomplishes more than all the earthquakes we would put together to shake people up.
Agree that prayer for one another and our understandings of scripture are fruitful. I do believe there are some wonderful Christians in the various groups and the Spirit leads them in their personal walk with God. However, I also don't think we need to 'bury our heads in the sand', so to speak, regarding what we are told to believe. Just as the scriptures tell us to test the spirits to see if they are of God, I can try to test these critiques and see if they 'hold water'. For instance, I was raised to believe unless you spoke in an unknown tongue, you did not have the Holy Spirit empowering your life. Later, after leaving Pentecostalism, it was pointed out to me that scripture indicates that not all speak in tongues and the Spirit does fill us and empower us with or without this experience.

And, does happen, as we see it at our church, when folk leave a church and come to ours, they look back with more of a degrading eye on the church they left than an attitude of prayer and moving forward.

I appreciate your exhortation to focus on that of 'a good report'. I will work on this as I study these practises and beliefs.
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KingdomBuilder
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Re: Experiencing the Work of the Holy Spirit ?

Post by KingdomBuilder »

People have been trying to contain and replicate the Spirit since the beginning. Has it worked? Anyone bold enough to say "yes" for their entire church?

I can't help but think, plenty of folks believe in a slightly different Jesus than the one I see... So it's not surprising that they'd see/ "hear" of a different spirit. Right?
Another thing that bugs me: we always say the Spirit speaks with some "still, quiet voice".. Now, maybe He does, but I think this makes it awfully easy for folks to convince themselves that they've received personal revelation, when it may in fact be flesh.
I'll hop in and add more later.
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Re: Experiencing the Work of the Holy Spirit ?

Post by Valerie »

Following this with interest- having come from Pentecostal, then seeking out Anabaptist & also being introduced & studying the Orthodox Church- my husband & I find ourselves really sifting through all this when it comes to experiencing the Work of the Holy Spirit- where we come from it was quite common for people to claim they were hearing from the Spirit- directed by, led by, filled with, baptized with, manifestations of, etc- as has been mentioned, 'testing the Spirits' is/was always essential but by what test? Does the Spirit continue to direct & reveal? Where we fellowship now, we just learned that the belief is 'illumination' but no 'revelation'.

Perplexed-
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Sudsy
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Re: Experiencing the Work of the Holy Spirit ?

Post by Sudsy »

KingdomBuilder wrote:People have been trying to contain and replicate the Spirit since the beginning. Has it worked? Anyone bold enough to say "yes" for their entire church?

I can't help but think, plenty of folks believe in a slightly different Jesus than the one I see... So it's not surprising that they'd see/ "hear" of a different spirit. Right?
Another thing that bugs me: we always say the Spirit speaks with some "still, quiet voice".. Now, maybe He does, but I think this makes it awfully easy for folks to convince themselves that they've received personal revelation, when it may in fact be flesh.
I'll hop in and add more later.
In the book of the Revelation we read over and over - "He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches" and in Mathew - "He that hath ears to hear, let him hear." So, first one must have spiritual ears that can hear (which I believe comes with being made a new creation) and it requires faith and willingness to listen for the Spirit to speak.

I'll jump in here and give a bit of my experience when I believe I have been Spirit lead.

In a personal way God speaks to me most often through the scriptures. It comes as 'this is a truth' and in my spirit with a convincing sense. It has sometimes caused me to catch my breath as it affected my thoughts. But personally, I often may be bringing too many pre-conceived views about the scriptures to not hear or to block out anything but my own logical conclusions. I think our tendencies, at least mine, is to allow my human reasonings to drive my understandings and don't give ear to any Holy Spirit guidance. A matter of thinking I can figure most things out myself. Perhaps one can have an attitude that hearing from the Spirit is too mystical to just quiet our thoughts and give the Spirit a chance to speak.

Other times I am meditating on a subject and the next thing I read or hear hits exactly on the area I am thinking about. If a truth hits me in this experience, I have this 'wow moment' and I listen closer to see if God is pointing out something to me and if it aligns with scriptures that come to mind.

Occasionally, I have this strong 'urges' that come to mind to speak to a complete stranger in a friendly way on the weather or something else quite general in nature. This isn't my basic nature way of doing things and I have often wondered when I shrug these off if God was trying to open a door for conversation that could lead to further things God wants to do. I'm trying now to step out more with these urges and see what happens. The early church specifically prayed for boldness and it was given them. We don't have to be stuck in our own timid ways.

I would love to hear what others experience when they hear the Spirit with their spiritual ears. I believe a relationship with the Holy Spirit is possibly why Christianity is lacking real impact today. He is who Jesus sent us to enable us to be what we can never be in our own strength and understandings.
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Josh
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Re: Experiencing the Work of the Holy Spirit ?

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Sudsy wrote:Thanks Josh for the corection. I did some more investigating and one of my findings said that decisions for the church are made on a vote at a conference with a certain percent required to adapt or change practises. So, it would seem then that a certain percentage are not being Spirit lead and the COGM are trusting that the majority are Spirit lead even if those who see things differently believe their views do not conflict with scripture. Then these better follow the decision or may be excommunicated.
That's not really how excommunication or conference decisions work, but yes, we do trust our fellow brethren to help us make sure we aren't being deceived by thinking we are being led by the Spirit when we are in reality being led by our own minds, or worse, being led astray by the enemy of our souls.
I suspect you have run across this site but if not, it addresses some of the same concerns I have of some conservative Mennonite groups. Do 25,000 or so COGM Christians make up the 'one true church' ? Millions of other Christians over the centuries would not agree that 99.9+% of them are not Spirit lead. While reading some of this I wondered what the take is then on Romans 14.
Holdemans believe that Christians outside of our church are also Spirit-led, and that the Holy Spirit guides and takes care of each believer. They also believe that not every sincere, honest believer will be led into a Church of God in Christ, Mennonite church, and that only Jesus can understand how this can be when the scriptures also teach the church is one body and led by one spirit.
That site gets rather busy attacking nonresistance and the head covering. It's hard for me to take it credibly when I think the New Testament is so clear on those things.

There are also two sides to every story; the proponents of that site are not very forthcoming about the reasons they left the church.
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Josh
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Re: Experiencing the Work of the Holy Spirit ?

Post by Josh »

Wayne in Maine wrote:The truly grievous thing about the Bruderhof Communities, of which I was a member, is that this was essentially how things worked. If one disagreed with Christoph Arnold then one was obviously not hearing God's voice. In the end it stifled the Holy Spirit's speaking to the community. It's entirely possible that nearly all the brotherhood members, except Christoph himself, were in true unity hearing God's voice on some occasion or another. But instead of following God's leading everyone chose to agree with Christoph (I saw this anti-consensus at play on several occasions).
One of the reasons I have cast my lot in with the CGCM is because it doesn't work this way at all. In particular, observing the discernment process of the Lord speaking to the entire church on issues of technology use has been a blessing to me. It really does seem like people are trying to hear what God would want for us to do, search the scriptures for answers, and also search our Anabaptist forefathers for approaches and principles we might apply to our present day concerns.

By the way I have no reason to believe the Spirit is not doing likewise in other bodies of believers. But there is something special about the unity we experience congregationally and conference-wide. And I think a big part of what we experience is due to there being no special anointed single earthly man who is the head, or some deceased leader whose words are nearly the same as scripture.

For starters, John Holdeman liked the idea of untrimmed beards... a lot... and there's exactly one person at my church with a 5-button beard. And he's quite a character (and I love him).
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