Unconverted worshippers?

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Valerie
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Re: Unconverted worshippers?

Post by Valerie »

ohio jones wrote:
Valerie wrote:Did the Church eventually set a pattern, baptism and to receive the Holy Spirit?
How does it happen in the Anabaptist Churches? I mean, for a Believer to receive the Holy Spirit?
Not sure how in the Anabaptist Churches one receives the Holy Spirit-
It's not up to a church to decide when someone receives the Holy Spirit, nor does He read the label before deciding when to move in.
Well in the earliest days of the Church- the Apostles did decide this- when they knew they needed to lay hands on someone to receive the Holy Spirit (as they had not yet)

This is just one example from Acts 8 & Acts 19 :

…14Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John: 15Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost: 16(For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.) 17Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost. 18And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money,

Acts 19:
…5On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6And when Paul laid his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came upon them, and they spoke in tongues and prophesied. 7There were about twelve men in all.…

In other words, the Church by way of the Apostles, did make decisions to lay hands on a Believer to receive the Holy Spirit-wasn't this one of the differences between John's Baptism, and Jesus'?

I realize different sects understand these things differently- is why I was asking in the Mennonite Church if one is prayed over like the Apostles did, to receive the Holy Spirit, or if it is just assumed or what have you-
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Josh
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Re: Unconverted worshippers?

Post by Josh »

ohio jones wrote: It's not up to a church to decide when someone receives the Holy Spirit, nor does He read the label before deciding when to move in.
There's a guarantee in Acts 2:38 that when one repents and is baptised that one receives the Holy Spirit, but it's by no means the only way.
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Josh
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Re: Unconverted worshippers?

Post by Josh »

Valerie wrote:I realize different sects understand these things differently- is why I was asking in the Mennonite Church if one is prayed over like the Apostles did, to receive the Holy Spirit, or if it is just assumed or what have you-
Anabaptists aren't that focused on ritual. In my own church, our ministers' manual sometimes changed which Bible verses were read at a baptism over the last 150 years. In other Anabaptists churches where there have been baptisms, sometimes the minister just wings it and isn't reading a prepared text.

There is an assumption (in conservative Anabaptist circles) that every person who believes in Jesus receives the Holy Spirit. The Bible verses promising the Holy Spirit after one is baptised are sometimes read to a person who is struggling with assurance.

I don't know what Amish would think about the Holy Spirit. Perhaps you could ask someone you know?
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Chris
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Re: Unconverted worshippers?

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Heirbyadoption wrote:Thinking about the altar that Paul referenced to The Unknown God and also John 4:23- "the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him."

So, question- Is it possible for men and women to truly worship God before they have been converted?
Yes they can worship God, but not "truly".

Bring in a Hindu to your church, he will say he believes in Jesus, and that he is God. In fact, he'll agree with all you ask before a Baptism in most cases. Unfortunately, there are like millions of Hindu Gods too. Sure, they'll be happy to worship and sing hymns to our Triune God all day long. Imagine the guy next to you singing "Man of Sorrows" but also believing in a banana God....
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Sudsy
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Re: Unconverted worshippers?

Post by Sudsy »

Valerie wrote:
Sudsy wrote:
Valerie wrote:
Born by water (Baptism) & the Spirit (at one's Baptism, the Holy Spirit is received- This was prophetic words from Jesus- the New Testament Christians were born again by water & spirit by their baptism- John the Baptist was baptizing a baptism of repentance-
Jesus conveyed we must all be baptized as well, and so every new Christian was baptized and received the Holy Spirit-
(Born by water, and the Spirit)
When you read the writings of the early Church this was the common interpretation of Born Again- when I read an 18th century Amish Bishop's book, he understood it the same way- it seemed to be a common understanding until this last century- when "Born Againers" (as they are referred to) somewhat conveyed a different interpretation-

Curious if other Mennonites (besides the Amish Bishop) also saw being Born Again as referring to one's Baptism & receiving the Holy Spirit? I know i didn't used to have that understanding myself until I read the more ancient writings and the book by the Amish Bishop-
I'm a bit surprised, if I understand you correctly, Valerie, that water baptism is essential for salvation and is when one receives the Holy Spirit. This would suggest many, if not most, of the Salvation Army and Quaker believers are still unsaved. And also the various Anabaptists that are waiting to reach an acceptable age by their church. Etc.

Personally, seeing Nicodemus responded with a how can I be physically born twice, I favour the view that Jesus was saying our first entry into this world is by water (when the mother's water breaks) and additionally one must be born of the Spirit as a Spirit baptism. This response was to Nicodemus question and I don't believe it has anything to do with water baptism. But there are a variety of views on this and some serious outcomes on how crucial being born of water is understood.

I think it was quite a defining area in Anabaptist belief that water baptism is an act of obedience and follows a decision to follow Christ which requires a mature enough decision to be a follower. It is called 'believers baptism'. Re-baptised if one was baptised as a baby.

Perhaps you can clarify what I was surprised about ?
I believe you ordered David Bercot's Dictionary of Early Christian Beliefs, correct? (on your kindle?) When you look up "Born Again" in that book- it says "See Baptism, & New Birth"

Yes, I am still reading through the book taking my time. Thankyou for that tip to get my own copy.

Where I'm currently at in my faith journey thoughts - the earliest of Christians began to go astray and Paul often was involved in correcting them through his letters and visits and I don't see where Christian practise outside the scriptures would be any different. Seems to me man has a tendency towards creating religious practise and understanding Christian beliefs on his own thoughts and not always as the Holy Spirit directs. Church councils can also get things wrong as often a strong persuasive personality and other factors can lead them into error. Even those who selected our 66 books that make up our bible lead suspect lives. And I think God 'winks' at much of this as we do not see things clearly yet. However, imo, the basic beliefs in Christ dying for our sins, His resurrection, giving us the Holy Spirit (the new birth), His return and giving us the gift of immortality are ones I believe make up the core of Christian belief that saves us. Heresy, imo, are beliefs that disagree with these. This view may surprise you but my faith is not in the bible and man being perfectly correct but rather in Jesus and what He did to save me.


I confess I have held the more modern view of what Born Again meant until I started learning more of what the early Church writers wrote and the predominant understanding through this Church Age.

As far as your equestion about Salvation Army & Quakers- well I cannot imagine any denomination coming to the conclusion that Baptism wasn't a part of their Salvation, after all- it was Jesus who commanded this-
Of course He is the final judge, but I don't understand a denomination 'skipping this' but this is one of the issues I have with denominations as well- everyone doing their own thing.

I believe some who see water baptism as symbolic only of an inner Spirit baptism (a new birth) that has already occurred see there are other ways of reflecting this has occurred other than water baptism. They have seen too many who get dipped, sprinkled, immersed, poured on, etc with water, thinking they were then born again and yet there was no proof of this in their lives. Just as speaking in an unknown language was an initial sign in the early church of receiving the Spirit (which is not believed by most today, including Anabaptists), water baptism is also not viewed as necessary for salvation. The command at that time was to that audience in that day. In the Salvation Army, if you feel you want to identify as a believer through water baptism, they don't say no. They just don't do it themselves in their citadels.

I really doubt that those 3,000 on the day of Pentecost understood water baptism in the way Paul spoke of it later on. I think they were just being obedient and that was an act of identifying that they were going to follow Christ. They asked what to do to be saved and Peter gave them direction that included the act of obedience to be baptised in water. Perhaps something they understood as a cleansing act like having their sins washed away by being immersed. Not that water did that but their obedience to believe and be baptised did. I think many today still regard this as an act of obedience rather than one that has saving properties. However for myself, why not be immersed in water asap. I find it strange how it grew into a local church membership action. Another thing, I believe is man made.

See how screwed up I am ? My hope is built on nothing less than Jesus blood and righteousness. I dare not trust on denominational fame but wholly lean on Jesus name. On Christ the solid rock I stand all other rocks are shamrocks. (my version
:).
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EdselB
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Re: Unconverted worshippers?

Post by EdselB »

Valerie wrote:
Josh wrote:Jesus told Nicodemus “Ye must be born again”. No baptism involved.
Born by water (Baptism) & the Spirit (at one's Baptism, the Holy Spirit is received- This was prophetic words from Jesus- the New Testament Christians were born again by water & spirit by their baptism- John the Baptist was baptizing a baptism of repentance-
Jesus conveyed we must all be baptized as well, and so every new Christian was baptized and received the Holy Spirit-
(Born by water, and the Spirit)
When you read the writings of the early Church this was the common interpretation of Born Again- when I read an 18th century Amish Bishop's book, he understood it the same way- it seemed to be a common understanding until this last century- when "Born Againers" (as they are referred to) somewhat conveyed a different interpretation-

Curious if other Mennonites (besides the Amish Bishop) also saw being Born Again as referring to one's Baptism & receiving the Holy Spirit? I know i didn't used to have that understanding myself until I read the more ancient writings and the book by the Amish Bishop-

Your memory must be playing tricks on you. No book by an 18th century Amish bishop has any thing like what you are describing for the simple reason that there is no book written by any 18th century Amish bishop on anything. Furthermore such a claim contradicts the 7th Article of the 1632 Dordrecht Confession of Faith to which the Amish have subscribed to from their beginnings:

Concerning baptism we confess that all penitent believers, who, through faith, regeneration, and the renewing of the Holy Ghost, are made one with God, and are written in heaven, must, upon such Scriptural confession of faith, and renewing of life, be baptized with water, in the most worthy name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, according to the command of Christ, and the teaching, example, and practice of the apostles, to the burying of their sins, and thus be incorporated into the communion of the saints; henceforth to learn to observe all things which the Son of God has taught, left, and commanded His disciples.

I should note that it is not my intention to get into a drawn debate about Holy Spirit baptism and water baptism. I just want to correct an error of fact.
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Valerie
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Re: Unconverted worshippers?

Post by Valerie »

EdselB wrote:
Valerie wrote:
Josh wrote:Jesus told Nicodemus “Ye must be born again”. No baptism involved.
Born by water (Baptism) & the Spirit (at one's Baptism, the Holy Spirit is received- This was prophetic words from Jesus- the New Testament Christians were born again by water & spirit by their baptism- John the Baptist was baptizing a baptism of repentance-
Jesus conveyed we must all be baptized as well, and so every new Christian was baptized and received the Holy Spirit-
(Born by water, and the Spirit)
When you read the writings of the early Church this was the common interpretation of Born Again- when I read an 18th century Amish Bishop's book, he understood it the same way- it seemed to be a common understanding until this last century- when "Born Againers" (as they are referred to) somewhat conveyed a different interpretation-

Curious if other Mennonites (besides the Amish Bishop) also saw being Born Again as referring to one's Baptism & receiving the Holy Spirit? I know i didn't used to have that understanding myself until I read the more ancient writings and the book by the Amish Bishop-

Your memory must be playing tricks on you. No book by an 18th century Amish bishop has any thing like what you are describing for the simple reason that there is no book written by any 18th century Amish bishop on anything. Furthermore such a claim contradicts the 7th Article of the 1632 Dordrecht Confession of Faith to which the Amish have subscribed to from their beginnings:

Concerning baptism we confess that all penitent believers, who, through faith, regeneration, and the renewing of the Holy Ghost, are made one with God, and are written in heaven, must, upon such Scriptural confession of faith, and renewing of life, be baptized with water, in the most worthy name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, according to the command of Christ, and the teaching, example, and practice of the apostles, to the burying of their sins, and thus be incorporated into the communion of the saints; henceforth to learn to observe all things which the Son of God has taught, left, and commanded His disciples.

I should note that it is not my intention to get into a drawn debate about Holy Spirit baptism and water baptism. I just want to correct an error of fact.
I gave the book away Edsel, but the next time I go to Rabers Bookstore in Holmes County, I will buy the book again- I had shared about this book on our former "Mennodiscuss" and I may have meant 19th century, which would be 1800-s- I can't even remember his name now, but when I get the copy again I will share with you the chapter on this topic that he wrote- in case my memory IS playing tricks on me for details but I think I also shared this with former Amish- (I don't even remember now who i gave the book to! But it was very good! A little brown book translated into English-which I gleaned from), & I believe I had shared some things from it with a couple former Amish who didn't think Amish knew the real Gospel- What he was conveying in the book, if memory serves me- is the connection Born Again, Born by Water & Spirit- to Baptism-
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Sudsy
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Re: Unconverted worshippers?

Post by Sudsy »

EdselB wrote:Snip - Furthermore such a claim contradicts the 7th Article of the 1632 Dordrecht Confession of Faith to which the Amish have subscribed to from their beginnings:

Concerning baptism we confess that all penitent believers, who, through faith, regeneration, and the renewing of the Holy Ghost, are made one with God, and are written in heaven, must, upon such Scriptural confession of faith, and renewing of life, be baptized with water, in the most worthy name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, according to the command of Christ, and the teaching, example, and practice of the apostles, to the burying of their sins, and thus be incorporated into the communion of the saints; henceforth to learn to observe all things which the Son of God has taught, left, and commanded His disciples.
I hadn't look at this very closely before but am curious how the area I bolded in this Confession is understood by Anabaptists today. Are unbaptised believers (i.e. waiting for some other qualifications by a local church before baptism) in danger of not having their sins 'buried' ? And is this buried pointing to the practise of immersion symbolizing sins buried ? Do some Anabaptists believe our sins are in some 'forgiven' but 'not buried' state prior to baptism and if so, is this willfully living in a state of disobedience ? Also, what scriptural support is there for water baptism incorporating us into the 'communion of the saints' ? I take this to be tied to 'local church membership'. Are believers prior to baptism not in a state of 'communion of the saints' ?

Anyone who could help me out with this is welcome to and we can take this to the bunny trail thread if desired.
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ohio jones
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Re: Unconverted worshippers?

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Valerie wrote:I gave the book away Edsel, but the next time I go to Rabers Bookstore in Holmes County, I will buy the book again- I had shared about this book on our former "Mennodiscuss" and I may have meant 19th century, which would be 1800-s- I can't even remember his name now, but when I get the copy again I will share with you the chapter on this topic that he wrote- in case my memory IS playing tricks on me for details but I think I also shared this with former Amish- (I don't even remember now who i gave the book to! But it was very good! A little brown book translated into English-which I gleaned from), & I believe I had shared some things from it with a couple former Amish who didn't think Amish knew the real Gospel- What he was conveying in the book, if memory serves me- is the connection Born Again, Born by Water & Spirit- to Baptism-
On MD, you referred to the book as "True Christianity." I wonder if it might have been this one (certainly 19th century, unless people were writing books and being ordained rather young in those days), probably not this one.
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Valerie
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Re: Unconverted worshippers?

Post by Valerie »

ohio jones wrote:
Valerie wrote:I gave the book away Edsel, but the next time I go to Rabers Bookstore in Holmes County, I will buy the book again- I had shared about this book on our former "Mennodiscuss" and I may have meant 19th century, which would be 1800-s- I can't even remember his name now, but when I get the copy again I will share with you the chapter on this topic that he wrote- in case my memory IS playing tricks on me for details but I think I also shared this with former Amish- (I don't even remember now who i gave the book to! But it was very good! A little brown book translated into English-which I gleaned from), & I believe I had shared some things from it with a couple former Amish who didn't think Amish knew the real Gospel- What he was conveying in the book, if memory serves me- is the connection Born Again, Born by Water & Spirit- to Baptism-
On MD, you referred to the book as "True Christianity." I wonder if it might have been this one (certainly 19th century, unless people were writing books and being ordained rather young in those days), probably not this one.

That's the book OJ! Thank you (how did you find that? You never cease to amaze me (us)-
Like the reviewer said in that link, it is really good- I recommend the book- I also remembered since this- that I had offered to send it to any former Amish (on a 'former Amish' facebook group that I was invited on) that would be interested in reading it- several asked me to send it to them so I think I cleaned out Rabers of what they had- & also sent my own copy to someone- I thought it would be beneficial to former Amish who doubted Amish knew the Gospel (that is the claim by some!) I'm anxious to see if I can get another copy now from Rabers- Have you ever been to that store OJ?
Sorry for the sidetrack- this should be in bunny trails I realize-
Back to OP if the original question is still in question-
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