Unconverted worshippers?

[Wade]

I have heard the word worship actually gives the idea of bowing down. Gives me a picture of humility, reverence, and awe toward God. An unconverted person can bow down and even have awe just like the converted, so it makes me think real sincere worship being a posture of the heart rather than belief or knowledge. I would therefore tend to think that worshipping God in spirit and truth would require grace and conversion.

[Valerie]

Jesus told Nicodemus “Ye must be born again”. No baptism involved.

Born by water (Baptism) & the Spirit (at one's Baptism, the Holy Spirit is received- This was prophetic words from Jesus- the New Testament Christians were born again by water & spirit by their baptism- John the Baptist was baptizing a baptism of repentance-
Jesus conveyed we must all be baptized as well, and so every new Christian was baptized and received the Holy Spirit-
(Born by water, and the Spirit)
When you read the writings of the early Church this was the common interpretation of Born Again- when I read an 18th century Amish Bishop's book, he understood it the same way- it seemed to be a common understanding until this last century- when "Born Againers" (as they are referred to) somewhat conveyed a different interpretation-

Curious if other Mennonites (besides the Amish Bishop) also saw being Born Again as referring to one's Baptism & receiving the Holy Spirit? I know i didn't used to have that understanding myself until I read the more ancient writings and the book by the Amish Bishop-

[Valerie]

I have heard the word worship actually gives the idea of bowing down. Gives me a picture of humility, reverence, and awe toward God. An unconverted person can bow down and even have awe just like the converted, so it makes me think real sincere worship being a posture of the heart rather than belief or knowledge. I would therefore tend to think that worshipping God in spirit and truth would require grace and conversion.

This is how I've always believed-

The definition of worship in my glossary in my Bible says:

Worship: "to bow down". Commanded for God's people (1 Ch 16:29). In the Christian sense worship is the adoration of God through Participation in the services of the CHURCH, the highest act of a Christian (John 4:19-24)

I tend to agree that it is also a posture of the heart in all walks of life- bowing down in humility but apparently there is a distinct physical posture of bowing down by God's people which we read of in the Old & New Testament- (there is also a bowing that is a custom, of showing 'respect' which is different that worship bowing down- which the two are distinct-
I'm mindful of the book of Revelation how Apostle John bowed down to the angel- and the angel responded 'do not do that, I am your fellow servant- worship God- so there was still this understanding of physically bowing down as worship)

[MaxPC]

I have heard the word worship actually gives the idea of bowing down. Gives me a picture of humility, reverence, and awe toward God. An unconverted person can bow down and even have awe just like the converted, so it makes me think real sincere worship being a posture of the heart rather than belief or knowledge. I would therefore tend to think that worshipping God in spirit and truth would require grace and conversion.

Amen and amen

[ken_sylvania]

Jesus told Nicodemus “Ye must be born again”. No baptism involved.

Born by water (Baptism) & the Spirit (at one's Baptism, the Holy Spirit is received- This was prophetic words from Jesus- the New Testament Christians were born again by water & spirit by their baptism- John the Baptist was baptizing a baptism of repentance-
Jesus conveyed we must all be baptized as well, and so every new Christian was baptized and received the Holy Spirit-
(Born by water, and the Spirit)
When you read the writings of the early Church this was the common interpretation of Born Again- when I read an 18th century Amish Bishop's book, he understood it the same way- it seemed to be a common understanding until this last century- when "Born Againers" (as they are referred to) somewhat conveyed a different interpretation-

Curious if other Mennonites (besides the Amish Bishop) also saw being Born Again as referring to one's Baptism & receiving the Holy Spirit? I know i didn't used to have that understanding myself until I read the more ancient writings and the book by the Amish Bishop-

Well, I read an ancient book once written by a man who was actually a part of the early church. His narrative states that the Holy Spirit was not necessarily received at baptism. Sometimes it was received prior to baptism, and sometimes after baptism.
One must be careful what one reads, whether ancient writings or new writings. Any teaching must be compared with Scripture and rejected if it doesn't agree with what the Bible says. Any ancient writings that insist that the new birth, baptism, and receiving the Holy Spirit all have to happen at the same time should be considered suspect.

[Heirbyadoption]

Jesus told Nicodemus “Ye must be born again”. No baptism involved.

Born by water (Baptism) & the Spirit (at one's Baptism, the Holy Spirit is received- This was prophetic words from Jesus- the New Testament Christians were born again by water & spirit by their baptism- John the Baptist was baptizing a baptism of repentance-
Jesus conveyed we must all be baptized as well, and so every new Christian was baptized and received the Holy Spirit-
(Born by water, and the Spirit)
When you read the writings of the early Church this was the common interpretation of Born Again- when I read an 18th century Amish Bishop's book, he understood it the same way- it seemed to be a common understanding until this last century- when "Born Againers" (as they are referred to) somewhat conveyed a different interpretation-

Curious if other Mennonites (besides the Amish Bishop) also saw being Born Again as referring to one's Baptism & receiving the Holy Spirit? I know i didn't used to have that understanding myself until I read the more ancient writings and the book by the Amish Bishop-

Some of the shift in phraseology and perspective had to do with an influx of baptismal regeneration theology.

[Sudsy]

Jesus told Nicodemus “Ye must be born again”. No baptism involved.

Born by water (Baptism) & the Spirit (at one's Baptism, the Holy Spirit is received- This was prophetic words from Jesus- the New Testament Christians were born again by water & spirit by their baptism- John the Baptist was baptizing a baptism of repentance-
Jesus conveyed we must all be baptized as well, and so every new Christian was baptized and received the Holy Spirit-
(Born by water, and the Spirit)
When you read the writings of the early Church this was the common interpretation of Born Again- when I read an 18th century Amish Bishop's book, he understood it the same way- it seemed to be a common understanding until this last century- when "Born Againers" (as they are referred to) somewhat conveyed a different interpretation-

Curious if other Mennonites (besides the Amish Bishop) also saw being Born Again as referring to one's Baptism & receiving the Holy Spirit? I know i didn't used to have that understanding myself until I read the more ancient writings and the book by the Amish Bishop-

I'm a bit surprised, if I understand you correctly, Valerie, that water baptism is essential for salvation and is when one receives the Holy Spirit. This would suggest many, if not most, of the Salvation Army and Quaker believers are still unsaved. And also the various Anabaptists that are waiting to reach an acceptable age by their church. Etc.

Personally, seeing Nicodemus responded with a how can I be physically born twice, I favour the view that Jesus was saying our first entry into this world is by water (when the mother's water breaks) and additionally one must be born of the Spirit as a Spirit baptism. This response was to Nicodemus question and I don't believe it has anything to do with water baptism. But there are a variety of views on this and some serious outcomes on how crucial being born of water is understood.

I think it was quite a defining area in Anabaptist belief that water baptism is an act of obedience and follows a decision to follow Christ which requires a mature enough decision to be a follower. It is called 'believers baptism'. Re-baptised if one was baptised as a baby.

Perhaps you can clarify what I was surprised about ?

[Valerie]

Jesus told Nicodemus “Ye must be born again”. No baptism involved.

Born by water (Baptism) & the Spirit (at one's Baptism, the Holy Spirit is received- This was prophetic words from Jesus- the New Testament Christians were born again by water & spirit by their baptism- John the Baptist was baptizing a baptism of repentance-
Jesus conveyed we must all be baptized as well, and so every new Christian was baptized and received the Holy Spirit-
(Born by water, and the Spirit)
When you read the writings of the early Church this was the common interpretation of Born Again- when I read an 18th century Amish Bishop's book, he understood it the same way- it seemed to be a common understanding until this last century- when "Born Againers" (as they are referred to) somewhat conveyed a different interpretation-

Curious if other Mennonites (besides the Amish Bishop) also saw being Born Again as referring to one's Baptism & receiving the Holy Spirit? I know i didn't used to have that understanding myself until I read the more ancient writings and the book by the Amish Bishop-

Well, I read an ancient book once written by a man who was actually a part of the early church. His narrative states that the Holy Spirit was not necessarily received at baptism. Sometimes it was received prior to baptism, and sometimes after baptism.
One must be careful what one reads, whether ancient writings or new writings. Any teaching must be compared with Scripture and rejected if it doesn't agree with what the Bible says. Any ancient writings that insist that the new birth, baptism, and receiving the Holy Spirit all have to happen at the same time should be considered suspect.

In the earliest days of the Church when the Holy Spirit was poured out at Pentecost- (Acts 2) as we read through Acts, one can conclude there was no set pattern in place for a person to receive the Holy Spirit. Sometimes it was poured out and the receivers immediately began speaking in tongues- sometimes they had been baptized, but then hands were laid on them afterwards to receive the Holy Spirit--

What do we conclude from this? Did the Church eventually set a pattern, baptism and to receive the Holy Spirit?
It seems the first century Didache teaches that it by this time there was more of a pattern in place.

How does it happen in the Anabaptist Churches? I mean, for a Believer to receive the Holy Spirit? Are they prayed over at some point to receive the Holy Spirit (like the Apostles were doing in Acts) or is it left to just happen on His (the Holy Spirit's) own as it occassionaly happened in Acts as well-
Not sure how in the Anabaptist Churches one receives the Holy Spirit- if the early Church was setting the pattern- I know that different denominations interpret different ways about this-

[Valerie]

Jesus told Nicodemus “Ye must be born again”. No baptism involved.

Born by water (Baptism) & the Spirit (at one's Baptism, the Holy Spirit is received- This was prophetic words from Jesus- the New Testament Christians were born again by water & spirit by their baptism- John the Baptist was baptizing a baptism of repentance-
Jesus conveyed we must all be baptized as well, and so every new Christian was baptized and received the Holy Spirit-
(Born by water, and the Spirit)
When you read the writings of the early Church this was the common interpretation of Born Again- when I read an 18th century Amish Bishop's book, he understood it the same way- it seemed to be a common understanding until this last century- when "Born Againers" (as they are referred to) somewhat conveyed a different interpretation-

Curious if other Mennonites (besides the Amish Bishop) also saw being Born Again as referring to one's Baptism & receiving the Holy Spirit? I know i didn't used to have that understanding myself until I read the more ancient writings and the book by the Amish Bishop-

I'm a bit surprised, if I understand you correctly, Valerie, that water baptism is essential for salvation and is when one receives the Holy Spirit. This would suggest many, if not most, of the Salvation Army and Quaker believers are still unsaved. And also the various Anabaptists that are waiting to reach an acceptable age by their church. Etc.

Personally, seeing Nicodemus responded with a how can I be physically born twice, I favour the view that Jesus was saying our first entry into this world is by water (when the mother's water breaks) and additionally one must be born of the Spirit as a Spirit baptism. This response was to Nicodemus question and I don't believe it has anything to do with water baptism. But there are a variety of views on this and some serious outcomes on how crucial being born of water is understood.

I think it was quite a defining area in Anabaptist belief that water baptism is an act of obedience and follows a decision to follow Christ which requires a mature enough decision to be a follower. It is called 'believers baptism'. Re-baptised if one was baptised as a baby.

Perhaps you can clarify what I was surprised about ?

I believe you ordered David Bercot's Dictionary of Early Christian Beliefs, correct? (on your kindle?) When you look up "Born Again" in that book- it says "See Baptism, & New Birth"

I confess I have held the more modern view of what Born Again meant until I started learning more of what the early Church writers wrote and the predominant understanding through this Church Age.

As far as your equestion about Salvation Army & Quakers- well I cannot imagine any denomination coming to the conclusion that Baptism wasn't a part of their Salvation, after all- it was Jesus who commanded this-
Of course He is the final judge, but I don't understand a denomination 'skipping this' but this is one of the issues I have with denominations as well- everyone doing their own thing.

[ohio jones]

Did the Church eventually set a pattern, baptism and to receive the Holy Spirit?

How does it happen in the Anabaptist Churches? I mean, for a Believer to receive the Holy Spirit?

Not sure how in the Anabaptist Churches one receives the Holy Spirit-

It's not up to a church to decide when someone receives the Holy Spirit, nor does He read the label before deciding when to move in.