Unconverted worshippers?

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ohio jones
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Re: Unconverted worshippers?

Post by ohio jones »

You're welcome. But if I revealed my methods I'd no longer be quite so amazing. I'll have to check out Raber's sometime when I'm in the area, looks interesting.
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Valerie
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Re: Unconverted worshippers?

Post by Valerie »

ohio jones wrote:You're welcome. But if I revealed my methods I'd no longer be quite so amazing. I'll have to check out Raber's sometime when I'm in the area, looks interesting.
No worries, just keep it up :)
And yes this Bishop was born in the 18th century but he had to grow up some in the 19th to be a Bishop- it's a great book- I recommend it to anyone "True Christianity"
Rabers us bit easy to find but a really interesting bookstore- one of the 'sunniest' women I've ever seen worked there last I was in, hope she is doing okay- her husband had passed- but there's some really great books in there & they are less expensive than Behalt-
In the Charm area of Holmes County-
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Hats Off
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Re: Unconverted worshippers?

Post by Hats Off »

Sudsy wrote:
EdselB wrote:Snip - Furthermore such a claim contradicts the 7th Article of the 1632 Dordrecht Confession of Faith to which the Amish have subscribed to from their beginnings:

Concerning baptism we confess that all penitent believers, who, through faith, regeneration, and the renewing of the Holy Ghost, are made one with God, and are written in heaven, must, upon such Scriptural confession of faith, and renewing of life, be baptized with water, in the most worthy name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, according to the command of Christ, and the teaching, example, and practice of the apostles, to the burying of their sins, and thus be incorporated into the communion of the saints; henceforth to learn to observe all things which the Son of God has taught, left, and commanded His disciples.
I hadn't look at this very closely before but am curious how the area I bolded in this Confession is understood by Anabaptists today. Are unbaptised believers (i.e. waiting for some other qualifications by a local church before baptism) in danger of not having their sins 'buried' ? And is this buried pointing to the practise of immersion symbolizing sins buried ? Do some Anabaptists believe our sins are in some 'forgiven' but 'not buried' state prior to baptism and if so, is this willfully living in a state of disobedience ? Also, what scriptural support is there for water baptism incorporating us into the 'communion of the saints' ? I take this to be tied to 'local church membership'. Are believers prior to baptism not in a state of 'communion of the saints' ?

Anyone who could help me out with this is welcome to and we can take this to the bunny trail thread if desired.
In the article previous to the one on Baptism we read in part
" for, neither baptism, supper, church, nor any other outward ceremony, can without faith, regeneration, change or renewing of life, avail anything to please God or to obtain of Him any consolation or promise of salvation; but we must go to God with an upright heart, and in perfect faith, and believe in Jesus Christ, as the Scripture says, and testifies of Him; through which faith we obtain forgiveness of sins, are sanctified, justified, and made children of God, yea, partake of His mind, nature, and image, as being born again of God from above, through incorruptible seed. Genesis 8:21; Mark 1:15; Ezekiel 12:2; Colossians 3:9, 10; Ephesians 4:22, 24; Hebrews 10:22, 23; John 7:38."

Since baptism is an outward sign only, it has no bearing on the actual state of the person. For the many Anabaptists who do not immerse, buried has significance only as it relates to death and buried with Christ. To consider "sins forgiven but not buried" would be outside the scope of Anabaptist thinking as forgiven and buried would have the same meaning.

Anabaptist baptism consists of two steps or processes; first the actual baptism "in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit." The second, separate step is that of welcoming the newly baptized as a member of the congregation. "In the name of the congregation I (the bishop) offer you my hand; arise to a new beginning as a member of the congregation."
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Sudsy
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Re: Unconverted worshippers?

Post by Sudsy »

Hats Off wrote:
Sudsy wrote:
EdselB wrote:Snip - Furthermore such a claim contradicts the 7th Article of the 1632 Dordrecht Confession of Faith to which the Amish have subscribed to from their beginnings:

Concerning baptism we confess that all penitent believers, who, through faith, regeneration, and the renewing of the Holy Ghost, are made one with God, and are written in heaven, must, upon such Scriptural confession of faith, and renewing of life, be baptized with water, in the most worthy name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, according to the command of Christ, and the teaching, example, and practice of the apostles, to the burying of their sins, and thus be incorporated into the communion of the saints; henceforth to learn to observe all things which the Son of God has taught, left, and commanded His disciples.
I hadn't look at this very closely before but am curious how the area I bolded in this Confession is understood by Anabaptists today. Are unbaptised believers (i.e. waiting for some other qualifications by a local church before baptism) in danger of not having their sins 'buried' ? And is this buried pointing to the practise of immersion symbolizing sins buried ? Do some Anabaptists believe our sins are in some 'forgiven' but 'not buried' state prior to baptism and if so, is this willfully living in a state of disobedience ? Also, what scriptural support is there for water baptism incorporating us into the 'communion of the saints' ? I take this to be tied to 'local church membership'. Are believers prior to baptism not in a state of 'communion of the saints' ?

Anyone who could help me out with this is welcome to and we can take this to the bunny trail thread if desired.
In the article previous to the one on Baptism we read in part
" for, neither baptism, supper, church, nor any other outward ceremony, can without faith, regeneration, change or renewing of life, avail anything to please God or to obtain of Him any consolation or promise of salvation; but we must go to God with an upright heart, and in perfect faith, and believe in Jesus Christ, as the Scripture says, and testifies of Him; through which faith we obtain forgiveness of sins, are sanctified, justified, and made children of God, yea, partake of His mind, nature, and image, as being born again of God from above, through incorruptible seed. Genesis 8:21; Mark 1:15; Ezekiel 12:2; Colossians 3:9, 10; Ephesians 4:22, 24; Hebrews 10:22, 23; John 7:38."

Since baptism is an outward sign only, it has no bearing on the actual state of the person. For the many Anabaptists who do not immerse, buried has significance only as it relates to death and buried with Christ. To consider "sins forgiven but not buried" would be outside the scope of Anabaptist thinking as forgiven and buried would have the same meaning.

Anabaptist baptism consists of two steps or processes; first the actual baptism "in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit." The second, separate step is that of welcoming the newly baptized as a member of the congregation. "In the name of the congregation I (the bishop) offer you my hand; arise to a new beginning as a member of the congregation."
Thankyou. I became a member and later deacon of an evangelical baptist church years ago and their membership was somewhat similar as the entry to membership was 'extending the hand of fellowship' where after the pastor welcomed us to the community, the whole church came up in a line and individually welcomed us. But there was no link to church membership with baptism other than only baptised believers were accepted into membership.

So, a 'not yet water baptised believer' can still be viewed as a born again person as this statement you provided describes. Good to know. The main area I would have an issue with is if someone had to wait to be baptised until others judged them to have truly been converted. I can't find this in the NT. As the eunch said to Philip, what now can keep me from water baptism and the answer is if you believe and if water is available, period. Anyway, reading the didache, seems man add various conditions beyond the practise we read about in the NT. Things like running water, nakedness, fastings, etc. I think formal local church membership also got linked in where it wasn't originally with the criteria some have created to be accepted.

Anyway, again thankyou
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Heirbyadoption
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Re: Unconverted worshippers?

Post by Heirbyadoption »

Hats Off wrote:Anabaptist baptism consists of two steps or processes; first the actual baptism "in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit." The second, separate step is that of welcoming the newly baptized as a member of the congregation. "In the name of the congregation I (the bishop) offer you my hand; arise to a new beginning as a member of the congregation."
Any thoughts (really from anybody, not just HatsOff) on when membership became a hard and fast linkage with water baptism in Anabaptist thought? It doesn't seem quite so tightly linked in the early accounts of various itinerant preachers.
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EdselB
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Re: Unconverted worshippers?

Post by EdselB »

Valerie wrote:
ohio jones wrote:
Valerie wrote:I gave the book away Edsel, but the next time I go to Rabers Bookstore in Holmes County, I will buy the book again- I had shared about this book on our former "Mennodiscuss" and I may have meant 19th century, which would be 1800-s- I can't even remember his name now, but when I get the copy again I will share with you the chapter on this topic that he wrote- in case my memory IS playing tricks on me for details but I think I also shared this with former Amish- (I don't even remember now who i gave the book to! But it was very good! A little brown book translated into English-which I gleaned from), & I believe I had shared some things from it with a couple former Amish who didn't think Amish knew the real Gospel- What he was conveying in the book, if memory serves me- is the connection Born Again, Born by Water & Spirit- to Baptism-
On MD, you referred to the book as "True Christianity." I wonder if it might have been this one (certainly 19th century, unless people were writing books and being ordained rather young in those days), probably not this one.

That's the book OJ! Thank you (how did you find that? You never cease to amaze me (us)-
Like the reviewer said in that link, it is really good- I recommend the book- I also remembered since this- that I had offered to send it to any former Amish (on a 'former Amish' facebook group that I was invited on) that would be interested in reading it- several asked me to send it to them so I think I cleaned out Rabers of what they had- & also sent my own copy to someone- I thought it would be beneficial to former Amish who doubted Amish knew the Gospel (that is the claim by some!) I'm anxious to see if I can get another copy now from Rabers- Have you ever been to that store OJ?
Sorry for the sidetrack- this should be in bunny trails I realize-
Back to OP if the original question is still in question-
I had wondered if you were confusing David Beiler's, Das Wahre Christianthum [True Christianity] (written 1857, first published in 1888) with a nonexistent 18th Century Amish bishop's book. Even so Beiler's book has nothing like you attribute to him. He has a chapter on baptism, but its primary purpose is to address the controversy in the Amish church surrounding the issue of stream baptism. Still he makes several statements that are relevant.
Baptism is not the entry into the kingdom of God, but a sign that the old man of sin is laid aside and buried and man made a covenant with his God and Creator, to walk in a new life for the rest of his days. It also is sign that the person is willing to follow and obey the Word and example of our Lord Jesus Christ. For we do not seek salvation in water baptism but rather in the merit of Jesus Christ. [pp. 50-51]
Since Baptism of the Holy Spirit is much more important than baptism with water and the one who baptizes with holiness or in the Holy Spirit so much more noble, stronger, and mightier than the one who baptizes with water, so also is water baptism less than Spirit baptism. Since Spirit baptism is the most important and must be understood as a pouring or sprinkling, I therefore believe water baptism should be understood this way. There are only three kinds of baptism described in the Word of God, the baptism of the Spirit, water baptism and the baptism of suffering. The Spirit baptism is first, the most important, the most necessary, and no one can be a true Christian without it. [pp. 54-55]
All those under the Old Covenant who faithfully served God were blesses with the Spirit of God and were poured upon from above with the baptism of the Holy Spirit. [p. 60]
All these above mentioned were baptized with the Holy Spirit into one body, without a doubt Paul mentions: “Through the Spirit we are all baptized into one body, whether we are Jews or Greeks, servants or free men; we are all made to drink through or to one Spirit.” I think that Paul does not indicate water baptism here but rather the baptism of the Spirit with which all were endowed who were faithful under the Old Covenant as well as those who served God un the New Covenant according to the direction of Jesus Christ, even though the ceremonies were different [p. 62.]
It is the duty of the True Christian to consider the three baptisms and whether they are working in his own life. All responsible adults must have the baptism of the Spirit, if they want to be comforted and hope to attain eternal salvation. In Christ’s words, “Except a man be born again he cannot see the Kingdom of God. Also except a man be born of water and Spirit, he cannot enter the Kingdom of God.” This is the most important baptism). Baptism by water follows next however, not as important even if there is a lot of uproar and dissention about it nowadays. And yet the Savior says, “The Kingdom of God does not come in an outward manner….”
I suppose you could have been confused into thinking that Beiler’s citation of the scripture “Except a man be born of water and Spirit” endorsed the idea that the Holy Spirit was given at the time of water baptism. I think you are reading your understanding into Belier. You should note that he said water baptism follows baptism by the Spirit.
The 18th century Old Mennonite bishop Christian Burkholder in his Address to Youth, explains the phrase “born of water and Spirit” by citing Eph. 5:26:
Christ cleansed His church with the washing of water by the word, The words of Christ are “spirit and life.” (Jn. 6:36). Now if Christ thus cleanses his church namely, with the washing of water by the word,” then indeed we may say, we are born of the Word and Spirit. By the Word were all things made that were made.” [Conversations on Saving Faith, p. 221.]
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Sudsy
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Re: Unconverted worshippers?

Post by Sudsy »

So, I'm curious as to how Beiler concluded that the baptism in the Holy Spirit must be thought of in a 'sprinkling or pouring' way and not in an 'immersing' way. Any idea ? And what is thought about what it means in Anabaptist thought to have the Holy Spirit within a believer and what it means to be filled with the Spirit. Are these last two considered to be identical ?

My belief is that the Holy Spirit upon repentance and belief in Christ comes to live within the believer. He takes up residence. Our bodies are the temple or dwelling place of the Holy Spirit. He is not sprinkled on us but actually comes to live within us. Also being filled with the Holy Spirit is an on-going need and is a way of saying to come under the control of the Holy Spirit as we daily follow Christ. Is this a similar belief to some other Anabaptists ?
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Hats Off
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Re: Unconverted worshippers?

Post by Hats Off »

Read Acts 2, verses 3 and 4 then also verse 17 and 18. The tongues as of fire sat upon each of them and they were filled with the Spirit. "I will pour out of My Spirit".
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Sudsy
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Re: Unconverted worshippers?

Post by Sudsy »

Hats Off wrote:Read Acts 2, verses 3 and 4 then also verse 17 and 18. The tongues as of fire sat upon each of them and they were filled with the Spirit. "I will pour out of My Spirit".
Thankyou. I had not heard this connection before of the 'pouring out' of the Spirit phrase being associated with symbolic water baptism pouring. In my background the focus was more on the word baptizo meaning immerse and linked with how Paul explained the symbology of water baptism. Dying to sin and being resurrected to new life.

The 'pouring out of the Holy Spirit' in verses 17 and 18 describes the supernatural work of the Spirit that will occur on all who believe, men and women. Verse 18 is a counter argument to Paul saying women should keep silent in church being used to limit women's involvement.

Interesting how we interpret and match scripture with scripture to develop our practises.

I suppose sprinkling then comes from Ezekiel 36:25-27. Yes ?
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silentreader
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Re: Unconverted worshippers?

Post by silentreader »

Sudsy wrote:
Hats Off wrote:Read Acts 2, verses 3 and 4 then also verse 17 and 18. The tongues as of fire sat upon each of them and they were filled with the Spirit. "I will pour out of My Spirit".
Thankyou. I had not heard this connection before of the 'pouring out' of the Spirit phrase being associated with symbolic water baptism pouring. In my background the focus was more on the word baptizo meaning immerse and linked with how Paul explained the symbology of water baptism. Dying to sin and being resurrected to new life.

The 'pouring out of the Holy Spirit' in verses 17 and 18 describes the supernatural work of the Spirit that will occur on all who believe, men and women. Verse 18 is a counter argument to Paul saying women should keep silent in church being used to limit women's involvement.

Interesting how we interpret and match scripture with scripture to develop our practises.

I suppose sprinkling then comes from Ezekiel 36:25-27. Yes ?
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