Denominationalism

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gcdonner
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Re: Denominationalism

Post by gcdonner »

Sudsy wrote:
gcdonner wrote:
Sudsy wrote:I guess we disagree on this area as lustful thoughts to me are a sin if they are not just a passing thought but a lustful desire to actually act out a sin. Mathew 5:28 - "But I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lustful intent has already committed adultery with her in his heart."
Think about it a little more..

BTW, I'm quoting Jesus in red letters and not yelling at you. My bible is a red letter edition.
No, Jesus did not sin by hearing the temptation by Satan, nor do we. My point was it doesn't take the actual i.e. act of adultery or murdering someone to be sinning in our hearts when we desire to do these things yet don't actually pull them off in physical acts. I think it dangerous to i.e. actually slander someone when in our hearts we think of them in a slanderous way. Man looks on the outward but God looks on the heart. I don't think James was saying that sin doesn't really occur until we act it out. When it is acted upon it is sin but according to Jesus what we do in our hearts even if not outwardly acted upon falls short of the glory of God.

Do you believe, for instance, we can hold a grudge against someone and although we never openly act upon it we are not sinning ?

Still thinking about it. :)
I think we are in agreement, but the way you were saying it made it sound like just the thought would be sin and there are those that teach that. Like the saying I quoted before, we can't control the entrance of all of our thoughts, though we can control the environment that may solicit those thoughts. Meditating on an action, is the same as committing the act. Pornography is sin when we indulge in it, but just seeing a Playboy magazine on the book rack is not sin. However, if you go and pick it up then the sin has begun. We are lured in of our lusts, which is literally what James refers to when we are "drawn away".
Semantics can be difficult. Thanks
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Neto
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Re: Denominationalism

Post by Neto »

gcdonner wrote:....
Meditating on an action, is the same as committing the act. ....
I often hear people quote Jesus' words about 'looking on a woman to lust after her', and then saying that Jesus said that thinking about it is the same as doing it. But while I agree that it is sin to think about it, Jesus did not say that it "is just the same as doing it", and I don't think it makes sense to say that, either. In the situation he was talking about (adultery in the heart), the woman is not a willing 'partner' in the sin (or at least she doesn't have to be). If she is married, her marriage is not messed up because of your sin. If she is not married, she is not robbed of her purity, nor has her father and her future husband been robbed. In another example, if a person allows hatred to grow against another person, that person is still alive, and the relationship can be healed. I do not mean at all to diminish the seriousness of 'mental sin', but I also do not want to make out like Jesus is saying something he didn't.
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Wade
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Re: Denominationalism

Post by Wade »

gcdonner wrote:
Josh wrote:
gcdonner wrote: So, if you don't know, then blanket statements like those above in bold blue letters are not helpful, wouldn't you agree?
A congregation whose leadership loudly make statements affirming things like openly homosexual church leaders, actively promoting their members serving in the military, or promoting worshipping idols like icons, statues of Mary, etc. is openly promoting sin.
I guess you don't come from the same mindset as George Blaurock, eh? He went from church to church condemning infant baptism until his demise. I guess we don't have the same motivations these days eh?
I realize this is probably a new thought to some but I've always kind of felt like churched people relate more to the Jews and the unchurched relate more to being like Gentiles, rather than all of us just being Gentiles. I don't mean that negatively towards either side, just how my mind works...
So with saying that I notice in the scriptures that Christ went to those that were of the religion He was raised in when addressing them strongly. As far as I understand George Blaurock did the same in going to those of the same denomination of which he came from. That seems more appropriate than stepping into a denomination that one has had no real attachment too and telling them about what they are doing wrong.
Maybe sometimes both are called for but I tend to lean towards believing only some of us are called to do such things and maybe not all the time either. Therefore not so much making us of a different mind but rather a different part in the body.
And I don't know the history of it all but saying infant baptism is wrong isn't enough, people need to understand that following Christ is a personal vulantary commitment to God that no one can be born into but rather must be born-again into. But maybe he said that too. :)
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gcdonner
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Re: Denominationalism

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Neto wrote:
gcdonner wrote:....
Meditating on an action, is the same as committing the act. ....
I often hear people quote Jesus' words about 'looking on a woman to lust after her', and then saying that Jesus said that thinking about it is the same as doing it. But while I agree that it is sin to think about it, Jesus did not say that it "is just the same as doing it", and I don't think it makes sense to say that, either. In the situation he was talking about (adultery in the heart), the woman is not a willing 'partner' in the sin (or at least she doesn't have to be). If she is married, her marriage is not messed up because of your sin. If she is not married, she is not robbed of her purity, nor has her father and her future husband been robbed. In another example, if a person allows hatred to grow against another person, that person is still alive, and the relationship can be healed. I do not mean at all to diminish the seriousness of 'mental sin', but I also do not want to make out like Jesus is saying something he didn't.
Please note that I said, "meditating", ie contemplating, considering, working out the details, being immersed in the act. If you read all of my posts in this respect you know that I was mitigating against the idea of just a simple thought is the same as the act. I hope that clarifies it?
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gcdonner
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Re: Denominationalism

Post by gcdonner »

Wade wrote:
gcdonner wrote:
Josh wrote:
A congregation whose leadership loudly make statements affirming things like openly homosexual church leaders, actively promoting their members serving in the military, or promoting worshipping idols like icons, statues of Mary, etc. is openly promoting sin.
I guess you don't come from the same mindset as George Blaurock, eh? He went from church to church condemning infant baptism until his demise. I guess we don't have the same motivations these days eh?
I realize this is probably a new thought to some but I've always kind of felt like churched people relate more to the Jews and the unchurched relate more to being like Gentiles, rather than all of us just being Gentiles. I don't mean that negatively towards either side, just how my mind works...
So with saying that I notice in the scriptures that Christ went to those that were of the religion He was raised in when addressing them strongly. As far as I understand George Blaurock did the same in going to those of the same denomination of which he came from. That seems more appropriate than stepping into a denomination that one has had no real attachment too and telling them about what they are doing wrong.
Maybe sometimes both are called for but I tend to lean towards believing only some of us are called to do such things and maybe not all the time either. Therefore not so much making us of a different mind but rather a different part in the body.
And I don't know the history of it all but saying infant baptism is wrong isn't enough, people need to understand that following Christ is a personal vulantary commitment to God that no one can be born into but rather must be born-again into. But maybe he said that too. :)
And so we are back to my understanding of denominationalism at it's bare basics. While I don't condone or accept all denominations, I do believe, that they like individuals may have different callings, giftings and visions.
My name is George, but I don't see myself in that other George's position...
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Valerie
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Re: Denominationalism

Post by Valerie »

gcdonner wrote:
Sudsy wrote:
gcdonner wrote: Have you considered that we already are the wife and have already been presented to Christ? Paul's comments in Eph were made before the end of the OC. When we partake of communion it is a covenant meal, a marriage covenant meal, the marriage supper of the Lamb and he drinks it new WITH us each time, just as he said he would.
Something to think about, eh?
Is there some evidence somewhere that this is how the earliest church viewed this that communion participation is one and the same as the marriage supper of the Lamb ? Curious.
Have you read Matt 22 and the parable of the wedding feast?
Origen says this about the new covenant relating to marriage of Christ to the Church:
19. The Divorce of Israel.
Now, keeping in mind what we said above in regard to the passage from Isaiah about the bill of divorcement, we will say that the mother of the people separated herself from Christ, her husband, without having received the bill of divorcement, but afterwards when there was found in her an unseemly thing, and she did not find favour in his sight, the bill of divorcement was written out for her; for when the new covenant called those of the Gentiles to the house of Him who had cast away his former wife, it virtually gave the bill of divorcement to her who formerly separated from her husband - the law, and the Word. Therefore he, also, having separated from her, married, so to speak, another, having given into the hands of the former the bill of divorcement; wherefore they can no longer do the things enjoined on them by the law, because of the bill of divorcement. And a sign that she has received the bill of divorcement is this, that Jerusalem was destroyed along with what they called the sanctuary of the things in it which were believed to be holy, and with the altar of burnt offerings, and all the worship associated with it. And a further sign of the bill of divorcement is this, that they cannot keep their feasts,
Communion is the New Covenant meal, the New Covenant is the marriage to Christ, therefore the

Marriage Supper of the Lamb is represented by our communion meal.
Luk 22:18  For I say unto you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine, until the kingdom of God shall come.
Mat 26:29  But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom. (ie, in a new way
We drink it in the heavenly Jerusalem, the covenant city, where we now dwell, since the writer to the Hebrews tells us that:
Heb 12:22  But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, 
23  To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, 
24  And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling...
Who is the New Jerusalem?
Rev 21:9  And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife. 
10  And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God...
According to Paul, the heavenly Jerusalem was symbolic of the Church, & the New Covenant. (Gal 4:21-31)
Jesus hasn't left us waiting at the altar for 2000+ years has he?
Interesting quote by Origen, it seems you agree with him in support of preterism-
Origen also is quoted as saying "The Apostles taught infant baptism" as a statement, and not as an opinion-

The world waited a long time for Christ's first Advent, and it's not like we're sitting around waiting- there is work to be done! However, 2000 years (or however many exactly) really isn't a long time, it's not like "WE" individually are waiting 2000 years, we live this life in a vapor of time and then are with the Lord, in His presence! The holy martyrs mentioned in the book of Revelations, are somewhat impatient for the end of days, for final judgement- even they need a reminder to be patient-

I love this reminder from our dear Apostle Peter in 2 Peter 3:8:
3Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, 4And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. 5For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: 6Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: 7But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

8But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
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Sudsy
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Re: Denominationalism

Post by Sudsy »

Neto wrote:
gcdonner wrote:....
Meditating on an action, is the same as committing the act. ....
I often hear people quote Jesus' words about 'looking on a woman to lust after her', and then saying that Jesus said that thinking about it is the same as doing it. But while I agree that it is sin to think about it, Jesus did not say that it "is just the same as doing it", and I don't think it makes sense to say that, either. In the situation he was talking about (adultery in the heart), the woman is not a willing 'partner' in the sin (or at least she doesn't have to be). If she is married, her marriage is not messed up because of your sin. If she is not married, she is not robbed of her purity, nor has her father and her future husband been robbed. In another example, if a person allows hatred to grow against another person, that person is still alive, and the relationship can be healed. I do not mean at all to diminish the seriousness of 'mental sin', but I also do not want to make out like Jesus is saying something he didn't.
I agree with you both. I was thinking this morning of Jesus praying in the garden when He said "O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt." Where did this thought come from that Jesus even requested another way ? Sounds to be His humanness and what our human will desires for it's self preservation. However, Jesus immediately recognized this will and surrendered to the will of the Father. An example of being in tune with the Spirit and not giving way to human self serving, fleshly thoughts.

Agree also Neto, there are varying affects of sinning and who is damaged by it. I do also think there can be more attention given to sins that are more obvious outward and not the "little foxes that spoil the vine". We must guard ourselves against little foxes that do great harm to our Christian life. Sins such as jealousy, pride and impurity. Our attitudes toward one another can be very destructive to us if we are not living by the Spirit. Yielding to the Holy Spirit, trusting Him and relying upon Him to give us victory over sins will result in the fruit of the Spirit. I need to be reminded of this often.
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gcdonner
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Re: Denominationalism

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Valerie wrote: 8But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
How come people always quote this verse to support a huge gap of time, but never the opposite?
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Valerie
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Re: Denominationalism

Post by Valerie »

gcdonner wrote:
Valerie wrote: 8But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
How come people always quote this verse to support a huge gap of time, but never the opposite?
Apostle Peter was speaking prophetically and so we can apply this passage when people point out how long the Lord is tarrying- and Apostle Paul pointed out as well there were folks that were saying His return had already happened, and he had to address that as well- this passage is a reminder that 2000 years to the Lord, is like 2 days- His timetable is not ours-
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KingdomBuilder
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Re: Denominationalism

Post by KingdomBuilder »

gcdonner wrote:How come people always quote this verse to support a huge gap of time, but never the opposite?
I dont think people always do at all. The creation, the birth of Jesus, the crucifixion, etc. are all very short times (on our scale) that have eternal significance.
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