Denominationalism

General Christian Theology
Neto
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Re: Denominationalism

Post by Neto »

gcdonner wrote: Jesus hasn't left us waiting at the altar for 2000+ years has he?
Forgive me for this friendly little jibe, but Jesus hadn't started his teaching ministry yet 2000 years ago..... (Hello, by the way. Is it cold enough up there in Minnesota? Still there, right?)
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gcdonner
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Re: Denominationalism

Post by gcdonner »

Josh wrote:
gcdonner wrote:
Josh wrote:
Huh? I said I don’t know what’s going on in other congregations, since I’m not a part of them. Some might be pure, some are not.

As far as do I KNOW of sin... yes I do. Driving from church to church confronting people would not be a very good activity for me to engage in.
So, if you don't know, then blanket statements like those above in bold blue letters are not helpful, wouldn't you agree?
A congregation whose leadership loudly make statements affirming things like openly homosexual church leaders, actively promoting their members serving in the military, or promoting worshipping idols like icons, statues of Mary, etc. is openly promoting sin.
I guess you don't come from the same mindset as George Blaurock, eh? He went from church to church condemning infant baptism until his demise. I guess we don't have the same motivations these days eh?
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gcdonner
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Re: Denominationalism

Post by gcdonner »

Neto wrote:
gcdonner wrote: Jesus hasn't left us waiting at the altar for 2000+ years has he?
Forgive me for this friendly little jibe, but Jesus hadn't started his teaching ministry yet 2000 years ago..... (Hello, by the way. Is it cold enough up there in Minnesota? Still there, right?)
As close as we can tell, his death and resurrection took place, 1987 years ago, which is close enough for rhetoric, but for the sake of accuracy, I should say that he hasn't left us at the altar for 1947 years. With those two dates there HAS to be some sort of prophetic significance. Let's see now, take 3.5 years, then add....then subtract... then correct for sun shift, make allowances for speculations which brings us to the rapture will take place in the Fall of 2019 at 3:15 in the afternoon, CDST, oh but it will be from Jerusalem, right, so we again adjust and figure the time it takes to open the graves, add the movement of the rock crust since then and allow for time for the angels to find those lost at sea, we can make it definitely at 12 noon, Jerusalem standard time...
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Sudsy
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Re: Denominationalism

Post by Sudsy »

cmbl wrote:
RZehr wrote: "Not repeating the offence is the genuine fruit of repentance."
Sudsy wrote: And we may fail time and time again in the same area that we repented of (turned our back on).
Juxtaposing these two quotes indicates to me that they define "repentance" differently.
I can be convicted by the Holy Spirit of a sin, confess that sin and turn my back on it with intentions of not repeating it but then, being still in this fleshly body, not rely on the grace God offers to live victorious over that sin and repeat the same sin. I think the apostle Paul spoke about this in Romans 7. My repeated sinning in the same area is due to thinking I can stop my failing in some area through my own strength. Paul called the Galatians foolish for trying to live like this. We are sanctified by the Spirit to be able to live victoriously over sins. We may fall time and again but we don't give up for it is in our new nature to desire not to sin if we have been made spiritually alive.

Jesus pointed out that controlling our thoughts in sinful areas is still sinning as is the actual act. I believe the Christian life is one of turning from sin as we rely on God's supernatural grace to empower us to live victoriously. We are to keep reminding ourselves that we are no longer slaves to sin as that power has been broken. Yet we still fall short of the glory of God many times.

Is this how you understand repenting and how we deal with repeated failures/sinning ?
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Neto
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Re: Denominationalism

Post by Neto »

gcdonner wrote:
Neto wrote:
gcdonner wrote: Jesus hasn't left us waiting at the altar for 2000+ years has he?
Forgive me for this friendly little jibe, but Jesus hadn't started his teaching ministry yet 2000 years ago..... (Hello, by the way. Is it cold enough up there in Minnesota? Still there, right?)
As close as we can tell, his death and resurrection took place, 1987 years ago, which is close enough for rhetoric, but for the sake of accuracy, I should say that he hasn't left us at the altar for 1947 years. With those two dates there HAS to be some sort of prophetic significance. Let's see now, take 3.5 years, then add....then subtract... then correct for sun shift, make allowances for speculations which brings us to the rapture will take place in the Fall of 2019 at 3:15 in the afternoon, CDST, oh but it will be from Jerusalem, right, so we again adjust and figure the time it takes to open the graves, add the movement of the rock crust since then and allow for time for the angels to find those lost at sea, we can make it definitely at 12 noon, Jerusalem standard time...
:laugh By the way, have you heard the conspiracy theory that one of the Roman Emperors skipped ahead almost 300 years?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phantom_time_hypothesis
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gcdonner
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Re: Denominationalism

Post by gcdonner »

Neto wrote:
gcdonner wrote:
Neto wrote:
Forgive me for this friendly little jibe, but Jesus hadn't started his teaching ministry yet 2000 years ago..... (Hello, by the way. Is it cold enough up there in Minnesota? Still there, right?)
As close as we can tell, his death and resurrection took place, 1987 years ago, which is close enough for rhetoric, but for the sake of accuracy, I should say that he hasn't left us at the altar for 1947 years. With those two dates there HAS to be some sort of prophetic significance. Let's see now, take 3.5 years, then add....then subtract... then correct for sun shift, make allowances for speculations which brings us to the rapture will take place in the Fall of 2019 at 3:15 in the afternoon, CDST, oh but it will be from Jerusalem, right, so we again adjust and figure the time it takes to open the graves, add the movement of the rock crust since then and allow for time for the angels to find those lost at sea, we can make it definitely at 12 noon, Jerusalem standard time...
:laugh By the way, have you heard the conspiracy theory that one of the Roman Emperors skipped ahead almost 300 years?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phantom_time_hypothesis
That is a new one to me, but not surprising with all the speculation that goes on continually concerning the second coming of Christ...
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gcdonner
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Re: Denominationalism

Post by gcdonner »

Sudsy wrote:
cmbl wrote:
RZehr wrote: "Not repeating the offence is the genuine fruit of repentance."
Sudsy wrote: And we may fail time and time again in the same area that we repented of (turned our back on).
Juxtaposing these two quotes indicates to me that they define "repentance" differently.
I can be convicted by the Holy Spirit of a sin, confess that sin and turn my back on it with intentions of not repeating it but then, being still in this fleshly body, not rely on the grace God offers to live victorious over that sin and repeat the same sin. I think the apostle Paul spoke about this in Romans 7. My repeated sinning in the same area is due to thinking I can stop my failing in some area through my own strength. Paul called the Galatians foolish for trying to live like this. We are sanctified by the Spirit to be able to live victoriously over sins. We may fall time and again but we don't give up for it is in our new nature to desire not to sin if we have been made spiritually alive.

Jesus pointed out that controlling our thoughts in sinful areas is still sinning as is the actual act. I believe the Christian life is one of turning from sin as we rely on God's supernatural grace to empower us to live victoriously. We are to keep reminding ourselves that we are no longer slaves to sin as that power has been broken. Yet we still fall short of the glory of God many times.

Is this how you understand repenting and how we deal with repeated failures/sinning ?
Paul, however gives the solution to his speaking in Roms 7 with his revelation in Romans 8...
I disagree with your assessment of Jesus' teaching regarding the mind. Just the thoughts passing through are not sin (nor did Jesus say they were) but allowing them to become lustful will bring forth sin. See James for the progression of sin,
Jas 1:14  But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. 
15  Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
 
Temptation is NOT sin, else would Jesus be as guilty as you and me. Did he sin during his temptations in the wilderness? It may be that that was a process of the mind (not saying definitively that it was) that Jesus endured, yet without sin:
Heb 2:17  Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people. 
18  For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.
Heb 4:15  For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. 
He was tempted with seduction, as well as a hundred other things, but always overcame the temptation.

Too many Christians live in defeat because they believe that just because a thought passes through their mind that they have sinned.
Mat 5:27  Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery: 
28  But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart. 
I suggest again a reading of James to understand at what point the temptation becomes sin.

Perhaps a simple phrase can illustrate my point:
You can't stop the birds from flying over your head, but you can stop them from nesting in your hair.
Think about it.
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Sudsy
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Re: Denominationalism

Post by Sudsy »

gcdonner wrote:
Sudsy wrote:
cmbl wrote: Juxtaposing these two quotes indicates to me that they define "repentance" differently.
I can be convicted by the Holy Spirit of a sin, confess that sin and turn my back on it with intentions of not repeating it but then, being still in this fleshly body, not rely on the grace God offers to live victorious over that sin and repeat the same sin. I think the apostle Paul spoke about this in Romans 7. My repeated sinning in the same area is due to thinking I can stop my failing in some area through my own strength. Paul called the Galatians foolish for trying to live like this. We are sanctified by the Spirit to be able to live victoriously over sins. We may fall time and again but we don't give up for it is in our new nature to desire not to sin if we have been made spiritually alive.

Jesus pointed out that controlling our thoughts in sinful areas is still sinning as is the actual act. I believe the Christian life is one of turning from sin as we rely on God's supernatural grace to empower us to live victoriously. We are to keep reminding ourselves that we are no longer slaves to sin as that power has been broken. Yet we still fall short of the glory of God many times.

Is this how you understand repenting and how we deal with repeated failures/sinning ?

Paul, however gives the solution to his speaking in Roms 7 with his revelation in Romans 8...

I disagree with your assessment of Jesus' teaching regarding the mind. Just the thoughts passing through are not sin (nor did Jesus say they were) but allowing them to become lustful will bring forth sin. See James for the progression of sin,
Jas 1:14  But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. 
15  Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
 
Temptation is NOT sin, else would Jesus be as guilty as you and me. Did he sin during his temptations in the wilderness? It may be that that was a process of the mind (not saying definitively that it was) that Jesus endured, yet without sin:
Heb 2:17  Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people. 
18  For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.
Heb 4:15  For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. 
He was tempted with seduction, as well as a hundred other things, but always overcame the temptation.

Agree. Jesus did not allow these temptations, these passing thoughts to alter how He thought. He dealt with them to not sin.

Too many Christians live in defeat because they believe that just because a thought passes through their mind that they have sinned.

I agree that thoughts passing through our heads are not committing sins but although sinful thoughts do pass through our minds, it is what we do with these thoughts that makes them a sin or not and I believe we can sin in our minds (i.e. harbouring anger, resentment, etc). We are to cast them out and not allow them to control our thinking. Living in defeat, to me, is when I hold unto a sinful thought and allow it to have a foothold in how I think whether or not I actually do some action beyond holding unto it in my mind.
Mat 5:27  Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery: 
28  But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart. 
I suggest again a reading of James to understand at what point the temptation becomes sin.

I guess we disagree on this area as lustful thoughts to me are a sin if they are not just a passing thought but a lustful desire to actually act out a sin. Mathew 5:28 - "But I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lustful intent has already committed adultery with her in his heart."

Perhaps a simple phrase can illustrate my point:
You can't stop the birds from flying over your head, but you can stop them from nesting in your hair.
Think about it.
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gcdonner
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Re: Denominationalism

Post by gcdonner »

Sudsy wrote:I guess we disagree on this area as lustful thoughts to me are a sin if they are not just a passing thought but a lustful desire to actually act out a sin. Mathew 5:28 - "But I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lustful intent has already committed adultery with her in his heart."
You just answered your own contention, since Jesus said, "looking with lustful intent".
That is more than a thought passing through your mind. Did Jesus sin by hearing the temptation of Satan?
Think about it a little more..

BTW, I'm quoting Jesus in red letters and not yelling at you. My bible is a red letter edition.
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Sudsy
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Re: Denominationalism

Post by Sudsy »

gcdonner wrote:
Sudsy wrote:I guess we disagree on this area as lustful thoughts to me are a sin if they are not just a passing thought but a lustful desire to actually act out a sin. Mathew 5:28 - "But I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lustful intent has already committed adultery with her in his heart."
You just answered your own contention, since Jesus said, "looking with lustful intent".
That is more than a thought passing through your mind. Did Jesus sin by hearing the temptation of Satan?
Think about it a little more..

BTW, I'm quoting Jesus in red letters and not yelling at you. My bible is a red letter edition.
No, Jesus did not sin by hearing the temptation by Satan, nor do we. My point was it doesn't take the actual i.e. act of adultery or murdering someone to be sinning in our hearts when we desire to do these things yet don't actually pull them off in physical acts. I think it dangerous to i.e. actually slander someone when in our hearts we think of them in a slanderous way. Man looks on the outward but God looks on the heart. I don't think James was saying that sin doesn't really occur until we act it out. When it is acted upon it is sin but according to Jesus what we do in our hearts even if not outwardly acted upon falls short of the glory of God.

Do you believe, for instance, we can hold a grudge against someone and although we never openly act upon it we are not sinning ?

Still thinking about it. :)
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