Denominationalism

General Christian Theology
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ohio jones
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Re: Denominationalism

Post by ohio jones »

KingdomBuilder wrote:Max and Boot, you both describe a similar idea of focusing on common ground. I agree with this. If we feel that we absolutely cannot relate to those __________ people because of their doctrine, perhaps it's time to humbly get back to the basics.
Yet it's precisely because of the basics that we recognize there are some groups we have no common ground with. Do we relate to JW and LDS as if they were orthodox Christians? Somewhere there has to be a line, lest we end up singing kumbayah with the Buddhists.
I'd prefer us to size-down our faith-identity and to get to a heavy congregational-focus. If each congregation can take for itself the gospels and apply them with true zeal, the rest will take care of itself. Sure, some will fail, but let their failure and fruit be what distinguishes the "them" from the "us"- not their title.
I've seen too many "independent" congregations go off the deep end to agree with this completely. If a church is accountable to a network of other churches (and this is not the same thing as top-down control from denominational headquarters), the failure rate, and the carnage induced by those failures, can be greatly reduced.
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KingdomBuilder
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Re: Denominationalism

Post by KingdomBuilder »

OhioJones wrote:I've seen too many "independent" congregations go off the deep end to agree with this completely. If a church is accountable to a network of other churches (and this is not the same thing as top-down control from denominational headquarters), the failure rate, and the carnage induced by those failures, can be greatly reduced.
In my ideal, tight inter-congregational bonds would form on a relatively local level, but not necessarily to the degree of complete homogeneity with one another. Complete independence in thought and deed wouldn't represent my ideal.
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Heirbyadoption
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Re: Denominationalism

Post by Heirbyadoption »

ohio jones wrote:
KingdomBuilder wrote:Max and Boot, you both describe a similar idea of focusing on common ground. I agree with this. If we feel that we absolutely cannot relate to those __________ people because of their doctrine, perhaps it's time to humbly get back to the basics.
Yet it's precisely because of the basics that we recognize there are some groups we have no common ground with. Do we relate to JW and LDS as if they were orthodox Christians? Somewhere there has to be a line, lest we end up singing kumbayah with the Buddhists.
I addressed a similar question to KingdomBuilder in the OTC thread regarding Mormons and LDS since the thought was expressed about extending them the hand of fellowship along with other Christians. It might be better answered here. I'd be interested in anybody taking a stab at it, not just KB, though. Is there a place for discernment, or some sort of line, such as Ohio asks?
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KingdomBuilder
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Re: Denominationalism

Post by KingdomBuilder »

Heirbyadoption wrote:I addressed a similar question to KingdomBuilder in the OTC thread regarding Mormons and LDS since the thought was expressed about extending them the hand of fellowship along with other Christians. It might be better answered here. I'd be interested in anybody taking a stab at it, not just KB, though. Is there a place for discernment, or some sort of line, such as Ohio asks?
Okay, I read your other post but I'll just reply here.
On an aside, I realize that LDS and JWs get bundled together a lot. In my opinion, LDS is on a totally different level with their doctrine than JWs are. So, it's going to be a lot easier for me to have possible fellowship with the JWs.
I think the "line" should be with people, not individuals. I know there are LDS who are terrible LDS, but great Christians. Lots of people in denominations are there without understanding much at all about the theology/ doctrines. It's surprising how ignorant some can be. I know this goes on in Missionary Baptists, Methodists, and I'm sure it goes on in CA circles, too.
My mode of operation is to approach self-professing Christians as, first and foremost, Christians. Not [insert title] Christians, just Christians. You will often find yourself surprised. I don't think we should draw the "line" too superficially or quickly.

Now, let's say that your fears are confirmed- the person you've extended fellowship to is knee-deep in LDS, etc., thinking... Now what? Is it really that difficult to adjust spiritually from fellowship and evangelism? I don't think so... They have a lot in common. Evangelism should be our fellowship with those who are lost.
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Joy
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Re: Denominationalism

Post by Joy »

What are some fundamentals of Christianity, which without, according to Scripture, there is no spiritual life?
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KingdomBuilder
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Re: Denominationalism

Post by KingdomBuilder »

Joy wrote:What are some fundamentals of Christianity, which without, according to Scripture, there is no spiritual life?
John 14:6 is one.
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CADude
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Re: Denominationalism

Post by CADude »

Joy wrote:What are some fundamentals of Christianity, which without, according to Scripture, there is no spiritual life?
Love for God, brethren, and all fellow men.

John 13:35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

Matthew 22:36-40

36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?

37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

38 This is the first and great commandment.

39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
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Heirbyadoption
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Re: Denominationalism

Post by Heirbyadoption »

KingdomBuilder wrote:
Heirbyadoption wrote:I addressed a similar question to KingdomBuilder in the OTC thread regarding Mormons and LDS since the thought was expressed about extending them the hand of fellowship along with other Christians. It might be better answered here. I'd be interested in anybody taking a stab at it, not just KB, though. Is there a place for discernment, or some sort of line, such as Ohio asks?
Okay, I read your other post but I'll just reply here.
On an aside, I realize that LDS and JWs get bundled together a lot. In my opinion, LDS is on a totally different level with their doctrine than JWs are. So, it's going to be a lot easier for me to have possible fellowship with the JWs.
I think the "line" should be with people, not individuals. I know there are LDS who are terrible LDS, but great Christians. Lots of people in denominations are there without understanding much at all about the theology/ doctrines. It's surprising how ignorant some can be. I know this goes on in Missionary Baptists, Methodists, and I'm sure it goes on in CA circles, too.
My mode of operation is to approach self-professing Christians as, first and foremost, Christians. Not [insert title] Christians, just Christians. You will often find yourself surprised. I don't think we should draw the "line" too superficially or quickly.

Now, let's say that your fears are confirmed- the person you've extended fellowship to is knee-deep in LDS, etc., thinking... Now what? Is it really that difficult to adjust spiritually from fellowship and evangelism? I don't think so... They have a lot in common. Evangelism should be our fellowship with those who are lost.
I appreciate your approach. Just something to consider, and again I'm speaking only from my studies and personal conversations with individual friends and members from both groups (in case somebody has had a different experience), but I'd respectfully suggest JWs are just as out to lunch Scripturally as the LDS movement. Off the top of my head, there's the well known usual JW denial of Jesus Christ is God, and relegation of Him to being a created angel. Probably another one of the biggies for me that I have encountered is their outright denial of the bodily resurrection of Jesus Christ and their replacement teaching that Jesus' body was dissolved into gases.

Further, at the with the ones I have spoken with at length, I have found most of them to be quite familiar with their theology, though admittedly that would be more among JWs than LDS, due to the intensive Sripture studies of the JWs. Continuing from above, to the last one those I have spoke with deny that the Holy Spirit is God, and insist that the Holy Spirit is simply a impersonal force, like electricity. More importantly, they teach that salvation must be earned or merited, and that in order obtain salvation and escape judgment, a person must ultimately join and work within the Jehovah's Witness organization. Additionally, they deny the endless punishment of the wicked and promote annihilationism instead, they deny that human beings have a spirit that exists after death, and that eternal life in God's presence is only for a select few, while the rest of humanity must remain on earth. And I recognize there may disagreement even on MN on this one, but they also deny the Triune Godhead and teach that Satan invented the doctrine of the Trinity.

That's scratching the surface. My original question remains, I guess. What sort of criterion do you base your discernment on that would allow you to include in fellowship individuals who hold to these sort of things? I understand the need for evangelism, but I was under the impression you would generally include LDS and JWs in fellowship. Maybe I misunderstood. If so, I apologize.
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Heirbyadoption
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Re: Denominationalism

Post by Heirbyadoption »

CADude wrote:
Joy wrote:What are some fundamentals of Christianity, which without, according to Scripture, there is no spiritual life?
Love for God, brethren, and all fellow men.

John 13:35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

Matthew 22:36-40

36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?

37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

38 This is the first and great commandment.

39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
:up: Granted, in reference to the previous post, Matthew 22:37 does gets a little confusing when God has such different definitions and descriptions that we find in Scripture (ex-human, procreating spirit husband, created angel, spirit bro to Satan, impersonal force, annihilator of souls, etc, etc...).
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KingdomBuilder
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Re: Denominationalism

Post by KingdomBuilder »

I was under the impression you would generally include LDS and JWs in fellowship. Maybe I misunderstood. If so, I apologize.
Generally, no. I believe in a true Church of true believers that can potentially span many traditions, though some are much more apt to producing such believers- LDS and JW are 2 groups that I'd say are not too conducive to this.
I believe that within Baptists, LDS, CoC, Pentecostal,CA's, etc. there is a Church within a church. Now, for LDS, this may only be 2% of the members, while in others, it could be 50%, 75%, 90%.... Am I making sense?

I personally view this as important in how we look at other believers. If it's denied, then one would seem to be saying that their church is the church 100% purely comprised of True believers... we know that this simply isn't how it work.
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