Valerie wrote:So yes it is a very nice idea to think that we all see our denominations as one overall, it sure is not the picture that is painted to the watching world who is not blind to what has happened and is happening. A new believer/friend was SO discouraged over the variety of Churches and why there are so many- he shared with us he just doesn't get it.
We cannot control all Christians, we can only decide to honor other denominations. And I think that is important.
But consider the alternative. We will never become one denomination. And even the Orthodox cannot agree who is Orthodox and who is not. Their churches are aligned with nations, so when the Russians and Ukrainians are at war, Ukranians abandon the Russsian Orthodox Church and their Ukranian Orthodox Church is not officially recognized. If two neighboring countries who both call themselves Orthodox can't reach unity by agreeing to be Orthodox, I don't see this as a model that is going to work.
Ditto for Mennonites. We won't become one denomination either.
But we can choose to recognize and honor the Body of Christ.
0 x
Is it biblical? Is it Christlike? Is it loving? Is it true? How can I find out?
I think the main reason denominationalism and schisms occur can be identified from
Matthew 13:24-30English Standard Version (ESV)
The Parable of the Weeds
24 He put another parable before them, saying, “The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a man who sowed good seed in his field, 25 but while his men were sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat and went away. 26 So when the plants came up and bore grain, then the weeds appeared also. 27 And the servants of the master of the house came and said to him, ‘Master, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have weeds?’ 28 He said to them, ‘An enemy has done this.’ So the servants said to him, ‘Then do you want us to go and gather them?’ 29 But he said, ‘No, lest in gathering the weeds you root up the wheat along with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest, and at harvest time I will tell the reapers, “Gather the weeds first and bind them in bundles to be burned, but gather the wheat into my barn.”’”
Note also the master's way of handling it.
0 x
Noah was a conspiracy theorist...and then it began to rain.~Unknown
silentreader wrote:I think the main reason denominationalism and schisms occur can be identified from
Matthew 13:24-30English Standard Version (ESV)
The Parable of the Weeds
24 He put another parable before them, saying, “The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a man who sowed good seed in his field, 25 but while his men were sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat and went away. 26 So when the plants came up and bore grain, then the weeds appeared also. 27 And the servants of the master of the house came and said to him, ‘Master, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have weeds?’ 28 He said to them, ‘An enemy has done this.’ So the servants said to him, ‘Then do you want us to go and gather them?’ 29 But he said, ‘No, lest in gathering the weeds you root up the wheat along with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest, and at harvest time I will tell the reapers, “Gather the weeds first and bind them in bundles to be burned, but gather the wheat into my barn.”’”
Note also the master's way of handling it.
What about the schism that happened between Paul and Barnabas about John Mark? Was one of the two a "weed," or were both men well-intentioned, true followers of Jesus who held different views about the best course of action in a particular circumstance? Was that schism the worst thing that could have happened? Is it even possible for all believers everywhere to agree on the best course of action in every circumstance? When we disagree and take different paths, does that necessarily mean that the Church has "split," and if the two different paths take on different identifying aspects, is that really a bad thing? Members within the church have different gifts, and the variety of complementary gifts creates, ideally, a harmonious unity.
0 x
Remember the prisoners, as though you were in prison with them, and the mistreated, as though you yourselves were suffering bodily. -Heb. 13:3
Hats Off wrote:So do you believe the Reformation is the cause of "all these sects and denominations" that Jesus and the Apostles would hate?
I would also repeat what I have tried to say before - these various church groups in Anabaptism have the same faith - they are not teaching a variety of doctrines or Gospels.
What I have said was they are out of God's will- there is no way to conclude by reading the New Testament, that sectarianism is God's will- would I go so far as to say God 'hates' the divisions? Hmm. Not sure- let me flip the question- do you think He loves them?
It may very well be that all the sects in Anabaptism practice the same faith. While sitting in a restaurant in Amish Country- a man at a table by us, asked the Mennonite (I could tell by her covering and dress what type of Mennonite she was) he asked her about the various different headcoverings that he saw around the restuarant. She was trying to explain them all to him. He concluded that the large headcoverings were like being 'super Christian'. I was glancing over since his table was right by ours and I saw his countenance- he seemed perplexed by all this.
That being said- there are other 'branches' of Christianity that believe Anabaptists are not teaching correct doctrine & salvation, etc- I am not saying they are RIGHT, but again, another time in Amish Country, I was talking to an Anabaptist type of fellow who was street witnessing, (he had told me his upbringing & where he was at 'now') - another Christian man who was passing out tracts came along and they ended up in somewhat of an argument- you see- they both believed the 'other' was teaching another Gospel- (INTERPRETATION differences arose) so passer by's were noticing that it was turning into somewhat of a debate and the non-Anabaptist finally said "it would be better if we went & discussed this over coffee".
I see discussions on facebook all the time, disagreements on interpretations- accusations, etc-
This topic was about denominationalism and yes I guess I do conclude that the Reformation and the way it was handled and the splits it caused led to this situation we face today- everyone in their 'own' branch under the large umbrella, if they are honest with themselves, conclude that their own branch is the right one. That is fine and works for everyone, but when the question is asked about denominationalism I am sorry but I do not see it as a good 'Witness' of the Church and the Holy Spirit guiding into truth- it is more a "new Age" mentality- which is "Your truth verses My truth" and where our own conclusion of Truth causes us to fellowship but by and large, they do not blend well as "THE Church".
So do you believe that we would all be better off if the Reformation had not taken place? do you believe the Reformation was outside of God's will? Do you believe that in sum total Anabaptism is not acceptable to God because of all the different groups and the way they practise their faith?
I have had some dealings with a girl that has been into serious drug and alcohol abuse and through this also physical abuse from boy friends. I stopped in at her house to deliver her income tax returns and she introduced her current live-in boy friend to me. She had talked to him about the "Mennonite" and thought he might like to meet me. They were reading the bible when I got there but he jumped up and basically attacked me about some of our beliefs and ways of practising our faith. I told him "This is foolish - here we have a girl who wants to learn; who wants help to break free from her addictions: are we going to stand here and confuse her with debates about the "right" way to believe or are we going to help her in her time of need?"
I don't want to debate what is right; I prefer discussion with someone who is open to open discussion without condemning outright what I stand for. I have no need to apologize for what I believe and stand for; I will discuss my position but not when I am being told I am wrong.
silentreader wrote:I think the main reason denominationalism and schisms occur can be identified from
Matthew 13:24-30English Standard Version (ESV)
The Parable of the Weeds
24 He put another parable before them, saying, “The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a man who sowed good seed in his field, 25 but while his men were sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat and went away. 26 So when the plants came up and bore grain, then the weeds appeared also. 27 And the servants of the master of the house came and said to him, ‘Master, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have weeds?’ 28 He said to them, ‘An enemy has done this.’ So the servants said to him, ‘Then do you want us to go and gather them?’ 29 But he said, ‘No, lest in gathering the weeds you root up the wheat along with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest, and at harvest time I will tell the reapers, “Gather the weeds first and bind them in bundles to be burned, but gather the wheat into my barn.”’”
Note also the master's way of handling it.
What about the schism that happened between Paul and Barnabas about John Mark? Was one of the two a "weed," or were both men well-intentioned, true followers of Jesus who held different views about the best course of action in a particular circumstance? Was that schism the worst thing that could have happened? Is it even possible for all believers everywhere to agree on the best course of action in every circumstance? When we disagree and take different paths, does that necessarily mean that the Church has "split," and if the two different paths take on different identifying aspects, is that really a bad thing? Members within the church have different gifts, and the variety of complementary gifts creates, ideally, a harmonious unity.
Re Paul and Barnabas:
Was that an early form of denominationalism?
Was that disagreement resolved? Was there evidence later on of unity restored? If so, probably not symptomatic of the parable, or weeds for that matter.
0 x
Noah was a conspiracy theorist...and then it began to rain.~Unknown
Hats Off wrote:So do you believe the Reformation is the cause of "all these sects and denominations" that Jesus and the Apostles would hate?
I would also repeat what I have tried to say before - these various church groups in Anabaptism have the same faith - they are not teaching a variety of doctrines or Gospels.
What I have said was they are out of God's will- there is no way to conclude by reading the New Testament, that sectarianism is God's will- would I go so far as to say God 'hates' the divisions? Hmm. Not sure- let me flip the question- do you think He loves them?
It may very well be that all the sects in Anabaptism practice the same faith. While sitting in a restaurant in Amish Country- a man at a table by us, asked the Mennonite (I could tell by her covering and dress what type of Mennonite she was) he asked her about the various different headcoverings that he saw around the restuarant. She was trying to explain them all to him. He concluded that the large headcoverings were like being 'super Christian'. I was glancing over since his table was right by ours and I saw his countenance- he seemed perplexed by all this.
That being said- there are other 'branches' of Christianity that believe Anabaptists are not teaching correct doctrine & salvation, etc- I am not saying they are RIGHT, but again, another time in Amish Country, I was talking to an Anabaptist type of fellow who was street witnessing, (he had told me his upbringing & where he was at 'now') - another Christian man who was passing out tracts came along and they ended up in somewhat of an argument- you see- they both believed the 'other' was teaching another Gospel- (INTERPRETATION differences arose) so passer by's were noticing that it was turning into somewhat of a debate and the non-Anabaptist finally said "it would be better if we went & discussed this over coffee".
I see discussions on facebook all the time, disagreements on interpretations- accusations, etc-
This topic was about denominationalism and yes I guess I do conclude that the Reformation and the way it was handled and the splits it caused led to this situation we face today- everyone in their 'own' branch under the large umbrella, if they are honest with themselves, conclude that their own branch is the right one. That is fine and works for everyone, but when the question is asked about denominationalism I am sorry but I do not see it as a good 'Witness' of the Church and the Holy Spirit guiding into truth- it is more a "new Age" mentality- which is "Your truth verses My truth" and where our own conclusion of Truth causes us to fellowship but by and large, they do not blend well as "THE Church".
So do you believe that we would all be better off if the Reformation had not taken place? do you believe the Reformation was outside of God's will? Do you believe that in sum total Anabaptism is not acceptable to God because of all the different groups and the way they practise their faith?
I have had some dealings with a girl that has been into serious drug and alcohol abuse and through this also physical abuse from boy friends. I stopped in at her house to deliver her income tax returns and she introduced her current live-in boy friend to me. She had talked to him about the "Mennonite" and thought he might like to meet me. They were reading the bible when I got there but he jumped up and basically attacked me about some of our beliefs and ways of practising our faith. I told him "This is foolish - here we have a girl who wants to learn; who wants help to break free from her addictions: are we going to stand here and confuse her with debates about the "right" way to believe or are we going to help her in her time of need?"
I don't want to debate what is right; I prefer discussion with someone who is open to open discussion without condemning outright what I stand for. I have no need to apologize for what I believe and stand for; I will discuss my position but not when I am being told I am wrong.
If I may say something about this?
Hats Off, you are unlike some Mennonites and I appreciate that. But, I have seen what Valerie is talking about. And because Anabaptists are known for being a group and not for individuals sometimes us newcomers get confused with this.
It just takes one corrupt person in a group to have the whole of the group lumped together as corrupt because of the tightness that exists with Mennonites. Us newcomers don't know how to deal with this? Because when offenses come from a Mennonite to a newcomer the whole group can defend the member. For someone who has made many friendship's with others in the group they are left outside and very challenged in walking alone. Tough thing to get through and understand, especially since the connection of good discipleship is severely broken, which they never had growing up or elsewhere.
I have seen the people who appreciate Mennonites the most have the most resentment towards them as their frustration shows because of that painful detachment. They can lash out as a natural defense mechanism. Not saying that they are right by any means but if they had something better to go to they would likely move on.
I know that our record of dealing with newcomers is not always the best. However, when Valerie keeps saying things like "I know they are not in God's will" I get frustrated. Why is she here telling us where we are wrong when she can't find anything better? Her approach is that SHE KNOWS. I should just ignore her posts. Your approach is quite different from Valerie's.
I think God has a will that is sovereign and no one can alter. I also think God has a will that is what I consider a strong desire as in God wills that none should perish but all should come to repentance. This will is a permissive will that allows things to occur outside of His ideal for man as in the former, God does not override man's choice even though He wills that none should perish. I think, and Valerie can correct me here, that she is saying that God is willing that we all live as a unified group of believers but allowing us to have choice, we have strayed and He builds His church regardless of our decisions to be in unique groups. As stated in Romans, we know that in all things (even in our denominational fragmenting) God is at work to accomplish His purpose in those that love him and are among the called. It is His Church and what we do to mess it up will not override what He will do to build it. You might say then that God's sovereign will is to build His Church out of whatever groups we may form.
All our churches/denominations are flawed in some way or other but God has His Church being built and nothing we can do will stop it from happening.
If what one craves is complete consistency and a one true church teaching, there is a rather large Mennonite sect that does that. I have no idea why Valerie doesn’t just settle down on that.
Valerie wrote:So yes it is a very nice idea to think that we all see our denominations as one overall, it sure is not the picture that is painted to the watching world who is not blind to what has happened and is happening. A new believer/friend was SO discouraged over the variety of Churches and why there are so many- he shared with us he just doesn't get it.
We cannot control all Christians, we can only decide to honor other denominations. And I think that is important.
I cannot agree wholeheartedly with this. We can love all people, but not honor all doctrines of denominations-Is Christ divided? Denominations are in their understanding of Holy Scripture- I can honor the 'intent' of wanting to please the Lord, but I cannot honor the representation of a Holy Spirit who guides into TRUTH to have caused such different interpretations- that would not be the Holy Spirit at work then- more man's ideas and then whoever himself/herself agrees with each particular man who started the innumerable denominations-
But consider the alternative. We will never become one denomination. And even the Orthodox cannot agree who is Orthodox and who is not. Their churches are aligned with nations, so when the Russians and Ukrainians are at war, Ukranians abandon the Russsian Orthodox Church and their Ukranian Orthodox Church is not officially recognized. If two neighboring countries who both call themselves Orthodox can't reach unity by agreeing to be Orthodox, I don't see this as a model that is going to work.
I can agree that it will never be even close to being "The Church" again until we are on the other side & denominational walls no longer exist. The situation between Russia & the Ukraine is far more complicated than you and I can understand- I have heard both sides of the story but it's way over my head, knowledge of history, etc to really understand- even still- this has nothing to do with "Orthodox" teaching & interpretations- it is political situations that countries have had to deal with, including Israel, since the beginning of divided countries (or the Tower of Babel) Yet- when it comes to Apostolic doctrine & interpretations, you will not see them divided-
Ditto for Mennonites. We won't become one denomination either.
Truth- I read the earliest historical accounts of the Anabaptist movement & it was not a picture of unity by and large-
There were "Confessions" written up that were signed in much the same way there were "Creeds" in the early days of the Church before the New Testament was compiled-
But we can choose to recognize and honor the Body of Christ.
Christ being the head, yes- but originally, the head of the one body meant the members were of one Apostolic faith & doctrine, both oral & written traditions and each member of that body didn't have different interpretations, just different ministries and roles. For several hundred years now, Christ being the head of the body- it seems a 'new' understanding of this has developed- that each 'member' of the body is really different denominations doing different things and believing different things. This is where we have fallen, and the fall precedes the return of Christ- so yes the falling away of THE faith, once for all delivered to the saints is prophetic and then the Second Advent occurs- I know other Christians feel the same way, what Christ is returning to is an enormously segregated mix of sects so much more than His first Advent, when Israel had some sects as well-
