Denominationalism

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ohio jones
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Re: Denominationalism

Post by ohio jones »

Perhaps some of you read Asher Witmer's blog. He has just completed a series that has some food for thought on this topic, specifically as it relates to Mennonites:
Part 1
Part 2
Part 3
Part 4
Part 5
I certainly don’t mean that I think we should get rid of denominations....

What I mean by dropping denominationalism is getting rid of this attitude that one denomination is above the other. Whenever I get the panicky feeling inside of me because someone is leaving my church or no longer doing life the way people in my denomination do it, I am living out denominationalism.

In the same way, if I leave, and look back all-condemningly of the church denomination I left, I am also living out denominationalism.
Unfortunately while rejecting denominationalism he seems to embrace generationalism, but otherwise I think his point of view is well taken.
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Josh
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Re: Denominationalism

Post by Josh »

From part 5:
At first it was frustrating because there is no conservative Mennonite college for one to go to if they wanted to get a Bible degree.
It seems neither Rosedale, Goshen, or EMU are “conservative” enough for Mr Witmer, and all of those institutions grant Bible degrees.

He doesn’t stop to ask the question of why Mennonites who seek Bible degrees universally stop being conservative.
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Sudsy
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Re: Denominationalism

Post by Sudsy »

ohio jones wrote:Perhaps some of you read Asher Witmer's blog. He has just completed a series that has some food for thought on this topic, specifically as it relates to Mennonites:
Part 1
Part 2
Part 3
Part 4
Part 5
I certainly don’t mean that I think we should get rid of denominations....

What I mean by dropping denominationalism is getting rid of this attitude that one denomination is above the other. Whenever I get the panicky feeling inside of me because someone is leaving my church or no longer doing life the way people in my denomination do it, I am living out denominationalism.

In the same way, if I leave, and look back all-condemningly of the church denomination I left, I am also living out denominationalism.
Unfortunately while rejecting denominationalism he seems to embrace generationalism, but otherwise I think his point of view is well taken.
Thankyou. That was an interesting read along with the comments of others. Growing up in classical Pentecostalism, I saw much of the same in various things he spoke about and some of my relatives, still Pentecostals, are not leaving but always quite concerned in areas such as becoming 'less Pentecostal as a denomination' in their outreach programs and church identification.

In my observation, and what I think is often the case, is when one leaves a denomination and finds more of what they relate to in another group, the initial change can bring out some condemning talk on what they have left. I think this is where they need encouragement to press on rather than look back and focus on how they can currently pursue becoming a better disciple.

Sometimes our current MB pastor and I still do look back on things that caused us to leave Pentecostalism but we also share certain things we experienced in that group that are still very meaningful and part of our lives and we keep fellowship with Pentecostals when and where we can. But we sure don't think we have arrived to now have found that 'one true church without spot or wrinkle' in the sense of perfected Christian practise. Yet we will be presented as a spotless bride.

Do you hear them coming, brother?—
Thronging up the steeps of light,
Clad in glorious shining garments,
Blood-washed garments, pure and white!

Refrain:
’Tis a glorious church without spot or wrinkle,
Washed in the blood of the Lamb;
’Tis a glorious church without spot or wrinkle,
Washed in the blood of the Lamb.

Do you hear the stirring anthems,
Filling all the earth and sky?
’Tis a grand, victorious army;
Lift its banner up on high!

Never fear the clouds of sorrow,
Never fear the storms of sin:
We shall triumph on the morrow—
Even now our joys begin.

Wave the banner, shout His praises,
For our victory is nigh!
Following our conqu’ring Savior,
We shall reign with Him on high!
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Valerie
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Re: Denominationalism

Post by Valerie »

RZehr wrote:If you can't even find one church out there that you can join and put your support wholeheartedly behind, then you have no authority to call for ecumenicalism, because in a small way you are simply behaving as if you are your own "denomination".
You are the smallest, most specialized, exclusive denomination around. No other group of people have it together well enough for you to join.
You are demonstrating the very inflexibility that you decry.
Jesus is the once who called for Unity- and Apostle Paul - 'that we would all speak the same things'- it really is the will of God- I am not suggesting that we are all in the center of God's will in succombing to denominationalism because that is what we are left with and we make the best of it- I still, according to Scripture, do not see it as "His will".
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KingdomBuilder
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Re: Denominationalism

Post by KingdomBuilder »

Valerie wrote:Jesus is the once who called for Unity- and Apostle Paul - 'that we would all speak the same things'- it really is the will of God- I am not suggesting that we are all in the center of God's will in succombing to denominationalism because that is what we are left with and we make the best of it- I still, according to Scripture, do not see it as "His will".
I appreciate this attitude
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RZehr
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Re: Denominationalism

Post by RZehr »

Valerie wrote:
RZehr wrote:If you can't even find one church out there that you can join and put your support wholeheartedly behind, then you have no authority to call for ecumenicalism, because in a small way you are simply behaving as if you are your own "denomination".
You are the smallest, most specialized, exclusive denomination around. No other group of people have it together well enough for you to join.
You are demonstrating the very inflexibility that you decry.
Jesus is the once who called for Unity- and Apostle Paul - 'that we would all speak the same things'- it really is the will of God- I am not suggesting that we are all in the center of God's will in succombing to denominationalism because that is what we are left with and we make the best of it- I still, according to Scripture, do not see it as "His will".
I think unity is best taught by example. So I don't lend much credence to a cry for unity from someone who doesn't know the work that unity actually takes and is not in unity with anyone.

I agree that unity is called for. I think most people would agree with that, but we usually think that means that "they" should be unified to "me" instead of me being unified to them.
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Valerie
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Re: Denominationalism

Post by Valerie »

RZehr wrote:
Valerie wrote:
RZehr wrote:If you can't even find one church out there that you can join and put your support wholeheartedly behind, then you have no authority to call for ecumenicalism, because in a small way you are simply behaving as if you are your own "denomination".
You are the smallest, most specialized, exclusive denomination around. No other group of people have it together well enough for you to join.
You are demonstrating the very inflexibility that you decry.
Jesus is the once who called for Unity- and Apostle Paul - 'that we would all speak the same things'- it really is the will of God- I am not suggesting that we are all in the center of God's will in succombing to denominationalism because that is what we are left with and we make the best of it- I still, according to Scripture, do not see it as "His will".
I think unity is best taught by example. So I don't lend much credence to a cry for unity from someone who doesn't know the work that unity actually takes and is not in unity with anyone.

I agree that unity is called for. I think most people would agree with that, but we usually think that means that "they" should be unified to "me" instead of me being unified to them.
Oh, I can and do practice unity in the fellowship that I go to, and also the one we went to for 20 years (until it started embracing things that I absolutely know that you would also be uncomfortable with)
So the example is by going along in our own chosen sects that 'we' feel most comfortable in, while at the same time knowing that sectarianism is not, never was, and never will be what Jesus wanted, what He prayed 'against' and yes, when we go along for whichever group fits 'our own' understanding the most, we can practice unity regardless of the fact it is not unity with others who also feel their group has it 'the most right'. Not the way the Scriptures teach. It did happen to the first Israel as well- it is much worse in the Israel of God in these days we live, no matter how much we try to justify where we have landed and call our own group unity- certainly the watching world knows exactly what I am saying. But yes, I have great fellowship where we are today and do not dispute where they may not agree with 'other' sects that have also a voice.
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Valerie
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Re: Denominationalism

Post by Valerie »

Here is an example of what I'm trying to convey- we are suppose to all speak the same things according to Apostle Paul- and Jesus prayed that we would be "one"- sure each of these 2 folks in this public facebook post are in 'unity' within their own denomination, each feeling it is doing as Scripture teaches- now an unbelieving person, seeking to understand how the Holy Spirit who guides into truth that his Christian friend told him about, stumbles on this facebook post:

Hello, why do you call your paper the Amish Voice? You know that some of the things you are trying to preach aren’t in the Old Order Amish beliefs! The main thing I have an issue with is this new belief of knowing one is saved! We read a lot of die Hoffnung and know that we have to “Keep on in die Hoffnung (hope)!”

I don’t think this is the way you were taught either. Stay in the way you were taught, we read. Why is it that when people want to be worldly and have worldly stuff, they think they can have it and still serve God? So many think they finally found the right faith. It just doesn’t all measure up in the Testament.

- Mrs. Schwartz

Joe Responds:

We have a twofold purpose in calling our paper the Amish Voice: a) many of the writers were born and raised Amish b) most of our recipients are Amish and Mennonite. Therefore, it makes sense to call our publication the Amish Voice.

I understand that some of the things we write about are not necessarily what all Old Order Amish are teaching. However, there was a time - not too many generations ago - when our forefathers did preach what is being taught in the Amish Voice. And the truth is, there are still some Old Order Amish churches who are preaching and teaching the one true gospel of Jesus Christ. Sadly, though, there are others who are placing a much greater emphasis on their Ordinance Letter (man-made rules) than on God’s Word – in this case, traditions and rules of the church have become more important than God’s Word.

It has never been our intent to persuade anyone to leave the Old Order Amish Church. Rather, it is our goal to challenge those who have pushed Scriptures aside and made their Ordinance Letter of greater value.

I fully realize that neither you or others would come right out and say, “I believe the Ordinance Letter is more important than the Bible,” but let us pause and take a sincere look at our actions. What do they say? Ask yourself, “If Jesus came to your church and wanted to become a member, would He fit in? Would he condemn and excommunicate anyone who did not live up to your list of man-made standards?” Think about it.

The Bible, which we ought to accept as God’s only and final authority, teaches very clearly that: a) salvation is not based on anything we do (Ephesians 2:8-9), and that b) salvation is fully - one hundred percent - based on the work of God (John 1:12-13).

Those who put their trust in the finished work of Jesus Christ by faith alone are instantly forgiven and made alive (Ephesians 2: 1, 5), justified (Romans 5:1; 8:30, 33-34), and delivered from spiritual death, darkness and the wrath to come (2 Corinthians 1:10; Colossians 1:13; 1 Thessalonians 1:10). Is it even possible that someone could experience such a radical and instant change as the new birth ... and not know it happend? According to God’s only and final authority, the answer is clearly no!

1 John 5:13 states: These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life…

You mentioned that the Bible reads, “we should stay in what we were taught.” My question is, what if that person is being taught wrong? Should he or she continue to stay? Is it more important to stay than to surrender to God’s Word? Maybe we should let God answer that.

Galatians 1:8-10 says, “But though we [Paul and the apostles], or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we [Paul and the apostles] have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received [from Paul and the apostles], let him be accursed. For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men?”

Acts 5:29 continues: “Then, Peter and the other apostles answered and said, we ought to obey God rather than men.”

Let me remind us all that when we stand before God, only one thing will matter: Did we - while alive on earth - read, obey and fully surrender to God’s only and final authority. If the answer is no, then bid yourself to change. If the answer is yes, then glory be to God.

Finally, let me respond to your very last question. You wrote, “Why is it when people want to be worldly and have worldly stuff, they think they can have that and still serve God?”

You must be referring to your Ordinance Letter.

Let’s, for a moment, put the Ordinance Letter aside and strictly go by God’s authority! Which is more worldly: a kerosene lantern or an electric powered bulb? The newspaper or the internet? The buggy or the car?

Which ones are worldly; which ones are not?

Are they not all worldly?

The truth is, if you can see it with your eyes and touch it with your fingers, it is of the world. Nowhere in the entire Bible does God say any one of these worldly things are forbidden to man-kind.

A good question for all of us might be: what gives you, or anyone else, the right to sit on God’s throne and say which ones are godly and which ones are ungodly?

One may walk away and say, Joe wants everyone to hook their house up to electricity, drive a car and get the internet. If so, they unfortunately missed my point.

One final word: I challenge you to lay all your personal preferences aside and return to the one and only authority – God’s everlasting words of truth. Let each one of us stop condemning and judging others who live by another set of preferences. Read Romans 14, and see how God says we are to handle differences of opinions and preferences.



What might this seeker of Truth conclude about the Holy Spirit, the Church, Unity of the "one faith", etc- (posting because this topic is indeed about denominationalism, and justification for it baffles me
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GaryK
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Re: Denominationalism

Post by GaryK »

Valerie wrote: Oh, I can and do practice unity in the fellowship that I go to, and also the one we went to for 20 years (until it started embracing things that I absolutely know that you would also be uncomfortable with)
So the example is by going along in our own chosen sects that 'we' feel most comfortable in, while at the same time knowing that sectarianism is not, never was, and never will be what Jesus wanted, what He prayed 'against' and yes, when we go along for whichever group fits 'our own' understanding the most, we can practice unity regardless of the fact it is not unity with others who also feel their group has it 'the most right'. Not the way the Scriptures teach. It did happen to the first Israel as well- it is much worse in the Israel of God in these days we live, no matter how much we try to justify where we have landed and call our own group unity- certainly the watching world knows exactly what I am saying. But yes, I have great fellowship where we are today and do not dispute where they may not agree with 'other' sects that have also a voice.
Valerie wrote: What might this seeker of Truth conclude about the Holy Spirit, the Church, Unity of the "one faith", etc- (posting because this topic is indeed about denominationalism, and justification for it baffles me
How can you justify being in the fellowship you are currently in? Is it THE example of the unity Jesus and Paul desired and the unity you keep promoting? That's what baffles me (and I think others)?
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ken_sylvania
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Re: Denominationalism

Post by ken_sylvania »

Mark 9:38-41 wrote:And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us. But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me. For he that is not against us is on our part. For whosoever shall give you a cup of water to drink in my name, because ye belong to Christ, verily I say unto you, he shall not lose his reward.
I think this suggests that Jesus isn't necessarily opposed to denominations within Christendom, provided we relate properly to Christians in other denominations.
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