Denominationalism

[mike]

And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us. But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me. For he that is not against us is on our part. For whosoever shall give you a cup of water to drink in my name, because ye belong to Christ, verily I say unto you, he shall not lose his reward.

I think this suggests that Jesus isn't necessarily opposed to denominations within Christendom, provided we relate properly to Christians in other denominations.

An interesting point. It is interesting that even during Jesus' ministry there were those who acted in his name who were not part of his immediate circle of disciples. Jesus did not see this as a threat, where his disciples did. I didn't read Witmer's article but I wrote a paper against denominations myself when I was younger. The view that denominations are wrong by definition is probably a bit hasty or misguided. Denominationalism, perhaps so.

Every group or association at some point will have a name, whether adopted by the group or imposed by others. It is similar in some ways to a person having a name. We need some way to identify what/whom we are talking about. I get the impression that Witmer smarts at the idea of being identified as part of a denomination. Many people who feel that way end up in so-called non-denominational or community churches. However these groups all end up having their own names anyway. Maybe it's just the denomination that they are in that they really have a problem with, because they just end up with a different nomenclature, is all.

[Neto]

Every group or association at some point will have a name, whether adopted by the group or imposed by others. It is similar in some ways to a person having a name. We need some way to identify what/whom we are talking about. I get the impression that Witmer smarts at the idea of being identified as part of a denomination. Many people who feel that way end up in so-called non-denominational or community churches. However these groups all end up having their own names anyway. Maybe it's just the denomination that they are in that they really have a problem with, because they just end up with a different nomenclature, is all.

A good example of this is the Christian & Missionary Alliance, who for decades maintained the claim that they were not a 'denomination'. Without looking it up, as I recall, they started out as an association of 'missionary churches' in the late 1800's, and finally accepted the terminology of being a denomination in perhaps the early 1960's.

There are several discussions going on here (this one, the 'One Church' topic, Remnant, etc.) that are sort of dancing around a question I have posed before: Is it possible to maintain a pure church (in the sense of a congregation, or a group of congregations), or is that a faulty objective? If it is not possible or 'required', then the early anabaptists made a grave error that cost many of them their lives. The entire Protestant reformation (I mean to exclude anabaptists as 'Protestants) accepted the idea of the true church being a remnant within an impure congregation or church organization. (They called upon the example of the remnant - the True Israel in the midst of the nation of Israel - in the OT period as a model to follow.) This was also the impetus that brought about the movement that became the Mennonite Brethren in Russia. I think we could go down a long list of groups that started out with this objective, who, while not saying that the entire church they had left was corrupt, felt that some members (and sometimes many, and too often including the pastors themselves) were living lives unfit for followers of Christ, and that those in leadership roles were not taking the path required by Scripture to remain pure.

[Valerie]

Oh, I can and do practice unity in the fellowship that I go to, and also the one we went to for 20 years (until it started embracing things that I absolutely know that you would also be uncomfortable with)
So the example is by going along in our own chosen sects that 'we' feel most comfortable in, while at the same time knowing that sectarianism is not, never was, and never will be what Jesus wanted, what He prayed 'against' and yes, when we go along for whichever group fits 'our own' understanding the most, we can practice unity regardless of the fact it is not unity with others who also feel their group has it 'the most right'. Not the way the Scriptures teach. It did happen to the first Israel as well- it is much worse in the Israel of God in these days we live, no matter how much we try to justify where we have landed and call our own group unity- certainly the watching world knows exactly what I am saying. But yes, I have great fellowship where we are today and do not dispute where they may not agree with 'other' sects that have also a voice.

What might this seeker of Truth conclude about the Holy Spirit, the Church, Unity of the "one faith", etc- (posting because this topic is indeed about denominationalism, and justification for it baffles me

How can you justify being in the fellowship you are currently in? Is it THE example of the unity Jesus and Paul desired and the unity you keep promoting? That's what baffles me (and I think others)?

I feel like I have made it abundantly clear that I realize we are living with a situation that is irreversable on 'this side' I think I've said this many times, it is what it is and we have to live with it- by at the same time realizing the picture of the Church at large is nothing like what Jesus and the Apostles described as being in unity, and all speaking the same things- I am purty sure on this side the Reformation which led to inumerable schisms and judging each other's Christianity- opened the door to the situation that grew more divided through the next several centuries. It also paved the way to many cults who claim the name Christianity but because there is no longer 'The Church whose faith was once for all delivered to the saints, and the Church being the pillar and ground of the truth- these cults are allowed to be classified under the "Christian" umbrella and bring enormous confusion into the mix- there is absolutely NO other 'religion' as sected as Christianity- into the thousands-
perhaps I am alone 'here' at being baffled by the continual defense of this-
Again, I can 'see' it and still admit it is something I too must live with but I will not bow down to justifying the division that satan was behind.

[Valerie]

And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us. But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me. For he that is not against us is on our part. For whosoever shall give you a cup of water to drink in my name, because ye belong to Christ, verily I say unto you, he shall not lose his reward.

I think this suggests that Jesus isn't necessarily opposed to denominations within Christendom, provided we relate properly to Christians in other denominations.

So these people that were casting out demons were considered 'another denomination'? I find that a puzzling conclusion-
The end of the New Testament Revelations, there were no denominations, churches were not teaching another Gospel they were recognized by different 'locations' only.

That passage MAY TODAY be used to justify the situation we have- but it is reading something into it that it does not say- it doesn't say they were following another doctrine or gospel, but that they were not following them- what we do know, was there were many people that 'followed along' with Jesus' group, men & women - I read that passage & don't take it that they were another denomination but that they were not physically following along with the group where they were 'going'.
Keeping that passage in mind, then according to what Jesus own words were, there really was no reason to form other denominations-
Is Christ divided? Apostle Paul asked the question-I guess we can say that if others are performing miracles in Jesus name, like the above passage is conveying, that we can assume they are of Christ. OR if we are not against other church groups of Christ, we are all One- is that it?

[Hats Off]

So do you believe the Reformation is the cause of "all these sects and denominations" that Jesus and the Apostles would hate?

I would also repeat what I have tried to say before - these various church groups in Anabaptism have the same faith - they are not teaching a variety of doctrines or Gospels.

[Josh]

Several major sects have existed since 400 who aren’t in communion with each other (Catholic vs Oriental Orthodox), then since 1000 the Catholics divided into Eastern Orthodox and Roman Catholic.

The idea that the One True Church was the Catholics from years 400-1000 is utterly absurd.

[GaryK]

Oh, I can and do practice unity in the fellowship that I go to, and also the one we went to for 20 years (until it started embracing things that I absolutely know that you would also be uncomfortable with)
So the example is by going along in our own chosen sects that 'we' feel most comfortable in, while at the same time knowing that sectarianism is not, never was, and never will be what Jesus wanted, what He prayed 'against' and yes, when we go along for whichever group fits 'our own' understanding the most, we can practice unity regardless of the fact it is not unity with others who also feel their group has it 'the most right'. Not the way the Scriptures teach. It did happen to the first Israel as well- it is much worse in the Israel of God in these days we live, no matter how much we try to justify where we have landed and call our own group unity- certainly the watching world knows exactly what I am saying. But yes, I have great fellowship where we are today and do not dispute where they may not agree with 'other' sects that have also a voice.

What might this seeker of Truth conclude about the Holy Spirit, the Church, Unity of the "one faith", etc- (posting because this topic is indeed about denominationalism, and justification for it baffles me

How can you justify being in the fellowship you are currently in? Is it THE example of the unity Jesus and Paul desired and the unity you keep promoting? That's what baffles me (and I think others)?

I feel like I have made it abundantly clear that I realize we are living with a situation that is irreversable on 'this side' I think I've said this many times, it is what it is and we have to live with it- by at the same time realizing the picture of the Church at large is nothing like what Jesus and the Apostles described as being in unity, and all speaking the same things- I am purty sure on this side the Reformation which led to inumerable schisms and judging each other's Christianity- opened the door to the situation that grew more divided through the next several centuries. It also paved the way to many cults who claim the name Christianity but because there is no longer 'The Church whose faith was once for all delivered to the saints, and the Church being the pillar and ground of the truth- these cults are allowed to be classified under the "Christian" umbrella and bring enormous confusion into the mix- there is absolutely NO other 'religion' as sected as Christianity- into the thousands-
perhaps I am alone 'here' at being baffled by the continual defense of this-
Again, I can 'see' it and still admit it is something I too must live with but I will not bow down to justifying the division that satan was behind.

By saying the situation is "irreversible" on this side are you saying that you believe there is no ONE true church on this side, including the EO?

[ken_sylvania]

OR if we are not against other church groups of Christ, we are all One- is that it?

I think that is exactly it. Jesus wants his followers to be focused on following Him, not on tearing down other churches who are trying to follow him. We have no interest in spending an inordinate amount of energy deciding who in what churches are outside of Christ, rather we focus on fellowship with those we know are in Him and leave the rest to God to figure out. Just because we attend different meetinghouses on Sunday, and just because we live out our faith in different ways, doesn't mean we don't follow the same Lord.

[Valerie]

So do you believe the Reformation is the cause of "all these sects and denominations" that Jesus and the Apostles would hate?

I would also repeat what I have tried to say before - these various church groups in Anabaptism have the same faith - they are not teaching a variety of doctrines or Gospels.

What I have said was they are out of God's will- there is no way to conclude by reading the New Testament, that sectarianism is God's will- would I go so far as to say God 'hates' the divisions? Hmm. Not sure- let me flip the question- do you think He loves them?

It may very well be that all the sects in Anabaptism practice the same faith. While sitting in a restaurant in Amish Country- a man at a table by us, asked the Mennonite (I could tell by her covering and dress what type of Mennonite she was) he asked her about the various different headcoverings that he saw around the restuarant. She was trying to explain them all to him. He concluded that the large headcoverings were like being 'super Christian'. I was glancing over since his table was right by ours and I saw his countenance- he seemed perplexed by all this.

That being said- there are other 'branches' of Christianity that believe Anabaptists are not teaching correct doctrine & salvation, etc- I am not saying they are RIGHT, but again, another time in Amish Country, I was talking to an Anabaptist type of fellow who was street witnessing, (he had told me his upbringing & where he was at 'now') - another Christian man who was passing out tracts came along and they ended up in somewhat of an argument- you see- they both believed the 'other' was teaching another Gospel- (INTERPRETATION differences arose) so passer by's were noticing that it was turning into somewhat of a debate and the non-Anabaptist finally said "it would be better if we went & discussed this over coffee".

I see discussions on facebook all the time, disagreements on interpretations- accusations, etc-

This topic was about denominationalism and yes I guess I do conclude that the Reformation and the way it was handled and the splits it caused led to this situation we face today- everyone in their 'own' branch under the large umbrella, if they are honest with themselves, conclude that their own branch is the right one. That is fine and works for everyone, but when the question is asked about denominationalism I am sorry but I do not see it as a good 'Witness' of the Church and the Holy Spirit guiding into truth- it is more a "new Age" mentality- which is "Your truth verses My truth" and where our own conclusion of Truth causes us to fellowship but by and large, they do not blend well as "THE Church".

[Valerie]

OR if we are not against other church groups of Christ, we are all One- is that it?

I think that is exactly it. Jesus wants his followers to be focused on following Him, not on tearing down other churches who are trying to follow him. We have no interest in spending an inordinate amount of energy deciding who in what churches are outside of Christ, rather we focus on fellowship with those we know are in Him and leave the rest to God to figure out. Just because we attend different meetinghouses on Sunday, and just because we live out our faith in different ways, doesn't mean we don't follow the same Lord.

I agree to an extent, it's just that I see a lot of denominations tearing down other denominations and I saw MOST of that happening when we were pursuing Anabaptism and listening to some of those we met- my husband couldn't take that- and when we were getting "The Heartbeat of the Remnant" there was a lot of that tearing down of other Christian groups as well, and I agreed with a writer who wrote in saying the harsh judgement 'against' Evangelicals he was reading in this Anabaptist publication, bothered him to the point he was asking to not receive the publication any longer.

So yes it is a very nice idea to think that we all see our denominations as one overall, it sure is not the picture that is painted to the watching world who is not blind to what has happened and is happening. A new believer/friend was SO discouraged over the variety of Churches and why there are so many- he shared with us he just doesn't get it.