Denominationalism

General Christian Theology
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ohio jones
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Re: Denominationalism

Post by ohio jones »

KingdomBuilder wrote:My mode of operation is to approach self-professing Christians as, first and foremost, Christians. Not [insert title] Christians, just Christians. You will often find yourself surprised. I don't think we should draw the "line" too superficially or quickly.
I agree with this in principle, but there's also a continuum from close fellowship to more distant connection, before you get to the line separating Christian from non-Christian. Denominational titles can be a shorthand way of initially approximating where a person might be on that range; for example, I'd expect to have more in common with someone from BMA than with an Episcopalian. Then as you get to know someone, they will probably move a little closer or farther way depending on their individual character and beliefs. And yes, there are often surprises, so it's important not to write someone off too quickly because of their label.
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KingdomBuilder
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Re: Denominationalism

Post by KingdomBuilder »

That's all fair, OJ.

I really have appreciated everyone's input thus far.
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LadyMarie
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Re: Denominationalism

Post by LadyMarie »

Mark 9:40
"Jesus replied, “Do not stop him. No one who performs a miracle in My name can turn around and speak evil of Me. For whoever is not against us is for us. Indeed, if anyone gives you even a cup of water because you bear the name of Christ, truly I tell you, he will never lose his reward"

Like others have said, Those that believe the Gospels and have a life that reflects it, they are part of the universal church, right?
But, Denomination on the whole have torn the Universal church apart.. God obviously works with this broken system but is it the way he desired it to be? Probably not.. Having a list of SEPARATE denominations doesn't seem very ONE CHURCH to me.. But, then im just little ol me.. We will know VERY soon when every knee bows, no?

Marie*
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KingdomBuilder
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Re: Denominationalism

Post by KingdomBuilder »

But, Denomination on the whole have torn the Universal church apart.. God obviously works with this broken system but is it the way he desired it to be? Probably not.. Having a list of SEPARATE denominations doesn't seem very ONE CHURCH to me.. But, then im just little ol me.. We will know VERY soon when every knee bows, no?
First off, welcome to the forum :wave:

I like your point here that God is working through a somewhat corrupted system that we've funded.
I agree that we will know on the Day of the Lord as to who are and have been truly His... Amen!

Until then, it's my prayer that the true Congregation of God can earnestly pray for and seek ways to touch the lives of the Saints who are in exceptionally corrupted churches. We should pray that these Saints can help bring reform, revival and truth to those nearest to them.
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Gene
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Re: Denominationalism

Post by Gene »

A pertinent question may be, When does ecumenicalism become syncretism?
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Valerie
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Re: Denominationalism

Post by Valerie »

KingdomBuilder wrote:
Josh wrote:This is exactly what John Holdeman wanted with his “church of God” doctrine, and likewise what the Restorationists wanted with their “churches of Christ” doctrine.
Yes. Overall I'd be inclined to agree to an extent.
At the end of the day, denominations do exist. If I’m away from home, I want to fellowship with other Christian believers of like precious faith. That means I need to know a few basics about what they believe. If they are not interested in following Jesus’ words or the bulk of the New Testament, I do not wish to try to seek close fellowship with them.
That's respectable and fair. From your postings and our talks, I gather that you travel a good bit, so I can see why this matters for you especially.
Ultimately, the legacy of anti-denominational movements like Restorationism, Holdemanism, or the Apostolic Christian Church is a lot of sectarianism and one true church doctrine. It’s worth talking about why that goal leads us to this destination.
Right, and this is a problem.
I think that overall, anti-denominationalism becomes easily synonymous with consolidating the church into one, completely united, and homogeneous Church. Again, not sure this is what the Scripture or Spirit would have.
I think it is Scriptural for there to be One Church- I cannot in my mind and understanding of what Jesus and the Apostles taught, support the thinking that there 'should' be different understandings if we are led by the Same Apostolic doctrine, and the Same Scriptures, and the same 'oral' and written tradtions-

Just a few Scriptures that come to mind:

1 Corinthians 1:10King James Version (KJV)
10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.

And in the prayer of Jesus in John 17, that our "Oneness" would be a witness to the world:

21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

Apostle Paul's words: (which reading this, no one can say this is true of todays Church at large)
Ephesians 4:4-6King James Version (KJV)
4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

1 Timothy 3:15: King James Bible
But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.



Having divisions in "the Church" is a sign of carnality, or following men- I don't have another way of looking at the Reformation without thinking about these 2 passages:
1 Cor 3:3
King James Bible
For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?

1 Corinthians 3:4
King James Bible
For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?

Until the GREAT Schism, there was one Church- there were more minor schisms and heresies of course, because the adversary knows by dividing the church it will hurt the Church's witness-

The fact remains in Revelations, when Jesus was addressing the 7 churches in Asia (7 among myriads of Churches started by the Apostles worldwide by then) there were no denominations, only differences in 'location'

I cannot in my understanding, justify Scripturally, denominations. Everyone goes where 'they' in 'their' own mind/understanding feel the most comfortable. Not so in the Church throughout most of the Church Age- within the Church, one was being sanctified and one would have certain ministries or gifts to offer but within "The Church" not going off starting a different one according to 'my' interpretation- we take issue with the idea that the pope claims infallibility (I am not sure that he does) but I think we all do this when we go where 'we' think so and so is the most right- so they become our pope so to speak- voila- denominations started and continue.

Romans 14 gives freedoms to 'practice' certain 'traditions' but not really apart from Apostolic DOCTRINE- this is where I would disagree that Romans 14 is justifying different denominations.

Sorry for the long post
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joshuabgood
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Re: Denominationalism

Post by joshuabgood »

ohio jones wrote:
KingdomBuilder wrote:Max and Boot, you both describe a similar idea of focusing on common ground. I agree with this. If we feel that we absolutely cannot relate to those __________ people because of their doctrine, perhaps it's time to humbly get back to the basics.
Yet it's precisely because of the basics that we recognize there are some groups we have no common ground with. Do we relate to JW and LDS as if they were orthodox Christians? Somewhere there has to be a line, lest we end up singing kumbayah with the Buddhists.
I'd prefer us to size-down our faith-identity and to get to a heavy congregational-focus. If each congregation can take for itself the gospels and apply them with true zeal, the rest will take care of itself. Sure, some will fail, but let their failure and fruit be what distinguishes the "them" from the "us"- not their title.
I've seen too many "independent" congregations go off the deep end to agree with this completely. If a church is accountable to a network of other churches (and this is not the same thing as top-down control from denominational headquarters), the failure rate, and the carnage induced by those failures, can be greatly reduced.
I think there has been ample evidence that denominations go off the deep end to...
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Hats Off
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Re: Denominationalism

Post by Hats Off »

Valerie wrote: It conveys the Holy Spirit guides differently to interpretation- which the Holy Spirit cannot be the author of leading different interpretations.
So whoever has the correct interpretation from the Holy Spirit then must be the ONE TRUE CHURCH! If we continue that logic then all else is ashes and dust and vanity!
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Hats Off
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Re: Denominationalism

Post by Hats Off »

KingdomBuilder wrote:
MaxPC wrote:Should we view discipleship in the context of "one true church" or should it be viewed in the context of "one true faith"?
I'd argue for the latter.
From the One True Church thread:

What is a denomination? "a recognized autonomous branch of the Christian Church." The origin is from the Latin word nominaire which is to call by name. The named group or body or fellowship of which I am a part of shares in the one true faith with many other named groups. However, our distinctive way of living out the one true faith or our preferred way of discipleship gives rise to the need for a name which is like an avatar so we can more easily be recognized or identified.
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RZehr
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Re: Denominationalism

Post by RZehr »

If you can't even find one church out there that you can join and put your support wholeheartedly behind, then you have no authority to call for ecumenicalism, because in a small way you are simply behaving as if you are your own "denomination".
You are the smallest, most specialized, exclusive denomination around. No other group of people have it together well enough for you to join.
You are demonstrating the very inflexibility that you decry.
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