Denominationalism

[Josh]

I am not focused on what goes on in other churches.

I’m pretty focused on my own life, my own congregation, my own brethren. I can say with confidence we aim to be a pure church and practice proper admonishing, love, caring, and disicipline to be so.

I can’t affirm the same about congregations I’m not part of. Some are obviously full of sin.

Yet you are willing to generically condemn other congregations? Don't you think that that is their aim as well? You are still comparing yourself with others, which is very unwise. If you KNOW of the sin, then it is your job (is it not?) to confront that/those brothers in the spirit of humility and love, personally, rather than sitting on a pole judging them?
Many people are proud of their purity which comes across as arrogance if not curtailed. Consider Luke 18:9-14

Think about it.

Huh? I said I don’t know what’s going on in other congregations, since I’m not a part of them. Some might be pure, some are not.

As far as do I KNOW of sin... yes I do. Driving from church to church confronting people would not be a very good activity for me to engage in.

[gcdonner]

I am not focused on what goes on in other churches.

I’m pretty focused on my own life, my own congregation, my own brethren. I can say with confidence we aim to be a pure church and practice proper admonishing, love, caring, and disicipline to be so.

I can’t affirm the same about congregations I’m not part of. Some are obviously full of sin.

Yet you are willing to generically condemn other congregations? Don't you think that that is their aim as well? You are still comparing yourself with others, which is very unwise. If you KNOW of the sin, then it is your job (is it not?) to confront that/those brothers in the spirit of humility and love, personally, rather than sitting on a pole judging them?
Many people are proud of their purity which comes across as arrogance if not curtailed. Consider Luke 18:9-14

Think about it.

Huh? I said I don’t know what’s going on in other congregations, since I’m not a part of them. Some might be pure, some are not.

As far as do I KNOW of sin... yes I do. Driving from church to church confronting people would not be a very good activity for me to engage in.

So, if you don't know, then blanket statements like those above in bold blue letters are not helpful, wouldn't you agree?

[KingdomBuilder]

Josh,
You repeatedly state how you prefer to focus almost exclusively on very localized Christianity (that's how I'm reading it at least), and that's fine. You should realize, though, that plenty of folks hold dearly to "broader" views, and they care quite a bit about what's going on in other churches.
I think a balance of the two is the answer.

[RZehr]

But my personal question has more to do with how, assuming that they start out pure, can any congregation or group of congregations remain so?

With a church, we cannot think of it in terms of perfect or complete purity as in a bucket of pure water, water with no contamination.

We are human, we will have contamination in each of us. Another thing to remember is the fact of new Christians. If this "pure" church is bringing in any new Christians there will be impurity as a part of the growing process. And we are all growing.
So, I don't think of true purity as a destination this side of glory, but rather a process. Is the church heading toward purity? Are the people in the church part of this process? Are the people taking steps to live pure lives, and encouraging and admonishing one another?
Is it only encouraging? Does the church pretty much allow anything at all with no action ever taken against church members sinning?

And different churches attempt this purifying in different ways. Some will put up with habitual, regular sinning and say that is part of the process of growth. Some will put up with mistakes, "falling" into sin, and say to get up and keep going, that is a part of the process. Some will put out the one that has sinned and only bring them back when they believe that person has pure intentions and motives.

On second thought, when you have a group of individuals who have all repented and have all been supernaturally converted from being under the power of sin to being under the power of Christ, are they not pure? Washed pure as snow? Are the sins not all completely washed and not merely covered?
In this case, the person can be pure. But we all will sin at some point. Maybe we don't realize it at the time, and then we realize later the motives that we didn't recognize before. And so we repent of that sin and we are pure. So in a large group of people there better be clear consciences. If not, then there is impurity.
It seems like the bigger the group the more likely that there is unrepentant sin in the group.

"Not repeating the offence is the genuine fruit of repentance."

[Sudsy]

On second thought, when you have a group of individuals who have all repented and have all been supernaturally converted from being under the power of sin to being under the power of Christ, are they not pure? Washed pure as snow? Are the sins not all completely washed and not merely covered?
In this case, the person can be pure. But we all will sin at some point. Maybe we don't realize it at the time, and then we realize later the motives that we didn't recognize before. And so we repent of that sin and we are pure. So in a large group of people there better be clear consciences. If not, then there is impurity.
It seems like the bigger the group the more likely that there is unrepentant sin in the group.

"Not repeating the offence is the genuine fruit of repentance."

Amen regarding we are pure. Any truly converted person through faith in Christ is sanctified/holy/pure. They are 'set apart' from those who are not. And although some are more obvious in their sinning than others they are also called 'saints'. Notice how Paul addressed the Corinthian church with all their sinning and includes us - 1 Cor. 1 & 2 - "To the church of God that is in Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints together with all those who in every place call upon the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, both their Lord and ours:" This is sometimes referred to as 'positional sanctification'. Regardless of what we may think about Calvinists or liberal forms of Christianity or RCs or Protestants or other Anabaptists, etc, etc, those truly converted to Christ are sanctified. We will be presented as a bride without spot or wrinkle and we can't do anything that makes us more pure as we belong to God.

However, we then go through a life long process of becoming sanctified in the sense of our practise that more and more should reflect who we are as saints. Some develop in this much faster than others and in different areas of becoming more like Christ in their practise. Personally, I don't believe any of us reach a state of entire sanctification where we just reach a point where we never sin again. At least, I have never met anyone like this. The apostle Paul certainly did not think he reached that state.

And we may fail time and time again in the same area that we repented of (turned our back on). God knows our weaknesses and His grace is always there to give us a fresh start when we confess and repent of our sins. Other believers may not in their thinking but it is God we will give an account to.

I think something is messed up in our thinking if we view ourselves as less sinless than yesterday or a year or so ago. As we get closer to knowing God we become aware of sins we just were not that aware of before. As Isaiah said in the presence of God he realized how sinful he was and how sinful those around him were. Growing closer to the Lord humbles us to know more about just how short we fall to God's glory. Pretty hard then to not see a beam in our own eye and judge other believers.

Hmmmm, what this has to do with denominationalism, I don't know. Other than God sees us as either in or out, saved or unsaved and whatever groups we have formed won't matter at all when we finally gather around the throne to worship Him.

[gcdonner]

On second thought, when you have a group of individuals who have all repented and have all been supernaturally converted from being under the power of sin to being under the power of Christ, are they not pure? Washed pure as snow? Are the sins not all completely washed and not merely covered?
In this case, the person can be pure. But we all will sin at some point. Maybe we don't realize it at the time, and then we realize later the motives that we didn't recognize before. And so we repent of that sin and we are pure. So in a large group of people there better be clear consciences. If not, then there is impurity.
It seems like the bigger the group the more likely that there is unrepentant sin in the group.

"Not repeating the offence is the genuine fruit of repentance."

Amen regarding we are pure. Any truly converted person through faith in Christ is sanctified/holy/pure. They are 'set apart' from those who are not. And although some are more obvious in their sinning than others they are also called 'saints'. Notice how Paul addressed the Corinthian church with all their sinning and includes us - 1 Cor. 1 & 2 - "To the church of God that is in Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints together with all those who in every place call upon the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, both their Lord and ours:" This is sometimes referred to as 'positional sanctification'. Regardless of what we may think about Calvinists or liberal forms of Christianity or RCs or Protestants or other Anabaptists, etc, etc, those truly converted to Christ are sanctified. We will be presented as a bride without spot or wrinkle and we can't do anything that makes us more pure as we belong to God.

However, we then go through a life long process of becoming sanctified in the sense of our practise that more and more should reflect who we are as saints. Some develop in this much faster than others and in different areas of becoming more like Christ in their practise. Personally, I don't believe any of us reach a state of entire sanctification where we just reach a point where we never sin again. At least, I have never met anyone like this. The apostle Paul certainly did not think he reached that state.

And we may fail time and time again in the same area that we repented of (turned our back on). God knows our weaknesses and His grace is always there to give us a fresh start when we confess and repent of our sins. Other believers may not in their thinking but it is God we will give an account to.

I think something is messed up in our thinking if we view ourselves as less sinless than yesterday or a year or so ago. As we get closer to knowing God we become aware of sins we just were not that aware of before. As Isaiah said in the presence of God he realized how sinful he was and how sinful those around him were. Growing closer to the Lord humbles us to know more about just how short we fall to God's glory. Pretty hard then to not see a beam in our own eye and judge other believers.

Hmmmm, what this has to do with denominationalism, I don't know. Other than God sees us as either in or out, saved or unsaved and whatever groups we have formed won't matter at all when we finally gather around the throne to worship Him.

Have you considered that we already are the wife and have already been presented to Christ? Paul's comments in Eph were made before the end of the OC. When we partake of communion it is a covenant meal, a marriage covenant meal, the marriage supper of the Lamb and he drinks it new WITH us each time, just as he said he would.
Something to think about, eh?

[Sudsy]

Have you considered that we already are the wife and have already been presented to Christ? Paul's comments in Eph were made before the end of the OC. When we partake of communion it is a covenant meal, a marriage covenant meal, the marriage supper of the Lamb and he drinks it new WITH us each time, just as he said he would.
Something to think about, eh?

Is there some evidence somewhere that this is how the earliest church viewed this that communion participation is one and the same as the marriage supper of the Lamb ? Curious.

[cmbl]

"Not repeating the offence is the genuine fruit of repentance."

And we may fail time and time again in the same area that we repented of (turned our back on).

Juxtaposing these two quotes indicates to me that they define "repentance" differently.

[gcdonner]

Have you considered that we already are the wife and have already been presented to Christ? Paul's comments in Eph were made before the end of the OC. When we partake of communion it is a covenant meal, a marriage covenant meal, the marriage supper of the Lamb and he drinks it new WITH us each time, just as he said he would.
Something to think about, eh?

Is there some evidence somewhere that this is how the earliest church viewed this that communion participation is one and the same as the marriage supper of the Lamb ? Curious.

Have you read Matt 22 and the parable of the wedding feast?
Origen says this about the new covenant relating to marriage of Christ to the Church:

19. The Divorce of Israel.
Now, keeping in mind what we said above in regard to the passage from Isaiah about the bill of divorcement, we will say that the mother of the people separated herself from Christ, her husband, without having received the bill of divorcement, but afterwards when there was found in her an unseemly thing, and she did not find favour in his sight, the bill of divorcement was written out for her; for when the new covenant called those of the Gentiles to the house of Him who had cast away his former wife, it virtually gave the bill of divorcement to her who formerly separated from her husband - the law, and the Word. Therefore he, also, having separated from her, married, so to speak, another, having given into the hands of the former the bill of divorcement; wherefore they can no longer do the things enjoined on them by the law, because of the bill of divorcement. And a sign that she has received the bill of divorcement is this, that Jerusalem was destroyed along with what they called the sanctuary of the things in it which were believed to be holy, and with the altar of burnt offerings, and all the worship associated with it. And a further sign of the bill of divorcement is this, that they cannot keep their feasts,

Communion is the New Covenant meal, the New Covenant is the marriage to Christ, therefore the Marriage Supper of the Lamb is represented by our communion meal.

Luk 22:18  For I say unto you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine, until the kingdom of God shall come.

Mat 26:29  But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom. (ie, in a new way) 

We drink it in the heavenly Jerusalem, the covenant city, where we now dwell, since the writer to the Hebrews tells us that:

Heb 12:22  But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, 
23  To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, 
24  And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling...

Who is the New Jerusalem?

Rev 21:9  And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife. 
10  And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God...

According to Paul, the heavenly Jerusalem was symbolic of the Church, & the New Covenant. (Gal 4:21-31)
Jesus hasn't left us waiting at the altar for 2000+ years has he?

[Josh]

Yet you are willing to generically condemn other congregations? Don't you think that that is their aim as well? You are still comparing yourself with others, which is very unwise. If you KNOW of the sin, then it is your job (is it not?) to confront that/those brothers in the spirit of humility and love, personally, rather than sitting on a pole judging them?
Many people are proud of their purity which comes across as arrogance if not curtailed. Consider Luke 18:9-14

Think about it.

Huh? I said I don’t know what’s going on in other congregations, since I’m not a part of them. Some might be pure, some are not.

As far as do I KNOW of sin... yes I do. Driving from church to church confronting people would not be a very good activity for me to engage in.

So, if you don't know, then blanket statements like those above in bold blue letters are not helpful, wouldn't you agree?

A congregation whose leadership loudly make statements affirming things like openly homosexual church leaders, actively promoting their members serving in the military, or promoting worshipping idols like icons, statues of Mary, etc. is openly promoting sin.