Denominationalism

General Christian Theology
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Josh
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Re: Denominationalism

Post by Josh »

Joy wrote:What are some fundamentals of Christianity, which without, according to Scripture, there is no spiritual life?
Matthew 5.
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Josh
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Re: Denominationalism

Post by Josh »

Gene wrote:A pertinent question may be, When does ecumenicalism become syncretism?
This is the essential question.

The middle ground here is hard to find. On the one hand, you have groups like Nationwide where members express they are pretty sure people in BMA couldn’t possibly be saved. On the other hand, you have people like the Episcopalian church or the Church of England who are comfortable letting a Muslim lead Islamic prayers in their churches.

Some groups of CAs like to find common ground with other CAs, yet it seems to usually drift to a least-common-denominator.
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Wade
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Re: Denominationalism

Post by Wade »

RZehr wrote:If you can't even find one church out there that you can join and put your support wholeheartedly behind, then you have no authority to call for ecumenicalism, because in a small way you are simply behaving as if you are your own "denomination".
You are the smallest, most specialized, exclusive denomination around. No other group of people have it together well enough for you to join.
You are demonstrating the very inflexibility that you decry.
Sounds like words from someone that grew up in a healthy church environment, that is easily accepted because of pedigree and has the opportunity of a biblical church around that they can wholeheartedly support. You are a very blessed man RZehr. :clap:
We could use more of this. :P
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Josh
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Re: Denominationalism

Post by Josh »

Wade wrote:Sounds like words from someone that grew up in a healthy church environment, that is easily accepted because of pedigree and has the opportunity of a biblical church around that they can wholeheartedly support. You are a very blessed man RZehr. :clap:
We could use more of this. :P
I didn’t grow up in a healthy church environment. Two of the churches my parents went to no longer exist. They don’t go to church at all now.

My pedigree isn’t so good. I’m divorced. My dad has a prior marriage. My last name isn’t one known to Anabaptists at all. None of my family is in any kind of Anabaptist church.

My reputation isn’t the best. When I first got saved a rumour started I worked for the FBI and my purpose of pretending I got saved was to investigate Mennonites for tax fraud. My nickname on construction job sites is still “FBI” to this day now.

A man started rumours I only went to church to try to meet youth girls. When they didn’t stick, another rumour started I was trying to spend time alone with the youth boys. And then after that, I stood accused of fornicating with a woman my own age who isn’t even Mennonite at all whom I met at a Bible study, because we went out for coffee a few times.

The church environment I got saved in had problems. Eventually they were so bad for me I left.

My current church I don’t always agree with everything 100%. I wholeheartedly support it anyway.

Wade, what’s your excuse?
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MaxPC
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Re: Denominationalism

Post by MaxPC »

It's very important to note here that there is language being used to attack Wade. Instead of Christian support and understanding for a family that embraces Mennonite teaching and yet doesn't have a local fellowship, I see aggressive and accusatory language such as "What's your excuse?"

Wade and his family have been kind and genuinely seeking. Life is challenging for them right now and frustration and longing for fellowship can be a part of that situation. 1 Thessalonians makes great points on this:
[bible]1 Thessalonians 5,11-22[/bible]
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Wade
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Re: Denominationalism

Post by Wade »

Josh wrote:
Wade wrote:Sounds like words from someone that grew up in a healthy church environment, that is easily accepted because of pedigree and has the opportunity of a biblical church around that they can wholeheartedly support. You are a very blessed man RZehr. :clap:
We could use more of this. :P
I didn’t grow up in a healthy church environment. Two of the churches my parents went to no longer exist. They don’t go to church at all now.

My pedigree isn’t so good. I’m divorced. My dad has a prior marriage. My last name isn’t one known to Anabaptists at all. None of my family is in any kind of Anabaptist church.

My reputation isn’t the best. When I first got saved a rumour started I worked for the FBI and my purpose of pretending I got saved was to investigate Mennonites for tax fraud. My nickname on construction job sites is still “FBI” to this day now.

A man started rumours I only went to church to try to meet youth girls. When they didn’t stick, another rumour started I was trying to spend time alone with the youth boys. And then after that, I stood accused of fornicating with a woman my own age who isn’t even Mennonite at all whom I met at a Bible study, because we went out for coffee a few times.

The church environment I got saved in had problems. Eventually they were so bad for me I left.

My current church I don’t always agree with everything 100%. I wholeheartedly support it anyway.

Wade, what’s your excuse?
We attend by far the most conservative church in area that stresses reading our Bible's and having a close walk with our Lord. However things like non-resistance are taught as just being self-righteous and war is acceptable because we are to obey government. Once saved we are always saved and just have to believe. When I first came to the Lord years ago at this church in instruction class my wife was taught that once you are saved you can be a serial murderer afterward and yet you will still make it to heaven. The freedom we recieve in Christ is the freedom to do whatever we want... I struggle greatly as we have left a couple times and tried doing church ourselves as a family but that also isn't very healthy. Nor is anything my individual choice.
Mind you I don't think the Pastor teaches all this so directly as others do besides Pastor often teaching about the time of our salvation that can never be taken away and that as long as we have that moment we have eternal security.
We've recently stopped attending Sunday school as I couldn't take anymore the months of continually correcting and talking to our children about wrong teachings and focus. My children used to come out of Sunday school so happy and when I asked what they learned they would talk about Christ. And now they come out unhappy talking about amusement parks, vacations to Hawaii, and excuses why not to visit nursing homes because it is like murder just getting old people sick...

We do love these people and want to be a blessing and support but I can't wholeheartedly support these things and I don't have much say in doing anything else.

Please help with any advice. Anyone, please.
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silentreader
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Re: Denominationalism

Post by silentreader »

Wade wrote:
Josh wrote:
Wade wrote:Sounds like words from someone that grew up in a healthy church environment, that is easily accepted because of pedigree and has the opportunity of a biblical church around that they can wholeheartedly support. You are a very blessed man RZehr. :clap:
We could use more of this. :P
I didn’t grow up in a healthy church environment. Two of the churches my parents went to no longer exist. They don’t go to church at all now.

My pedigree isn’t so good. I’m divorced. My dad has a prior marriage. My last name isn’t one known to Anabaptists at all. None of my family is in any kind of Anabaptist church.

My reputation isn’t the best. When I first got saved a rumour started I worked for the FBI and my purpose of pretending I got saved was to investigate Mennonites for tax fraud. My nickname on construction job sites is still “FBI” to this day now.

A man started rumours I only went to church to try to meet youth girls. When they didn’t stick, another rumour started I was trying to spend time alone with the youth boys. And then after that, I stood accused of fornicating with a woman my own age who isn’t even Mennonite at all whom I met at a Bible study, because we went out for coffee a few times.

The church environment I got saved in had problems. Eventually they were so bad for me I left.

My current church I don’t always agree with everything 100%. I wholeheartedly support it anyway.

Wade, what’s your excuse?
We attend by far the most conservative church in area that stresses reading our Bible's and having a close walk with our Lord. However things like non-resistance are taught as just being self-righteous and war is acceptable because we are to obey government. Once saved we are always saved and just have to believe. When I first came to the Lord years ago at this church in instruction class my wife was taught that once you are saved you can be a serial murderer afterward and yet you will still make it to heaven. The freedom we recieve in Christ is the freedom to do whatever we want... I struggle greatly as we have left a couple times and tried doing church ourselves as a family but that also isn't very healthy. Nor is anything my individual choice.
Mind you I don't think the Pastor teaches all this so directly as others do besides Pastor often teaching about the time of our salvation that can never be taken away and that as long as we have that moment we have eternal security.
We've recently stopped attending Sunday school as I couldn't take anymore the months of continually correcting and talking to our children about wrong teachings and focus. My children used to come out of Sunday school so happy and when I asked what they learned they would talk about Christ. And now they come out unhappy talking about amusement parks, vacations to Hawaii, and excuses why not to visit nursing homes because it is like murder just getting old people sick...

We do love these people and want to be a blessing and support but I can't wholeheartedly support these things and I don't have much say in doing anything else.

Please help with any advice. Anyone, please.
I guess the first thing I thought of while reading your post were Mordecai's words to Esther in Esther 4, especially the last part of v14, "...and who knows whether you have not come to the kingdom (church) for such a time as this."
The circumstances are of course vastly different, but sometimes God puts us in a place that is totally outside of our comfort zone in order for us to be an instrument in working out His purposes. This may or may not be the case here, I have insufficient knowledge to decide that. But if one person in the church is convicted by your witness and turns to God and receives salvation, then your trials will have had eternal value.
:pray
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RZehr
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Re: Denominationalism

Post by RZehr »

Wade wrote:
RZehr wrote:If you can't even find one church out there that you can join and put your support wholeheartedly behind, then you have no authority to call for ecumenicalism, because in a small way you are simply behaving as if you are your own "denomination".
You are the smallest, most specialized, exclusive denomination around. No other group of people have it together well enough for you to join.
You are demonstrating the very inflexibility that you decry.
Sounds like words from someone that grew up in a healthy church environment, that is easily accepted because of pedigree and has the opportunity of a biblical church around that they can wholeheartedly support. You are a very blessed man RZehr. :clap:
We could use more of this. :P
Although I think I can honestly say that our church life hasn't always been wonderful, and I can honestly say that I don't hold pedigree in esteem, and sometimes I wonder about how biblical we are at times, and there are decisions that I don't wholeheartedly support, I suppose you are right with your assessment of my circumstances.

I do love and appreciate and support our church and what we are trying to promote and believe. And I am tremendously blessed beyond belief!
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RZehr
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Re: Denominationalism

Post by RZehr »

Wade wrote: We attend by far the most conservative church in area that stresses reading our Bible's and having a close walk with our Lord. However things like non-resistance are taught as just being self-righteous and war is acceptable because we are to obey government. Once saved we are always saved and just have to believe. When I first came to the Lord years ago at this church in instruction class my wife was taught that once you are saved you can be a serial murderer afterward and yet you will still make it to heaven. The freedom we receive in Christ is the freedom to do whatever we want... I struggle greatly as we have left a couple times and tried doing church ourselves as a family but that also isn't very healthy. Nor is anything my individual choice.
Mind you I don't think the Pastor teaches all this so directly as others do besides Pastor often teaching about the time of our salvation that can never be taken away and that as long as we have that moment we have eternal security.
We've recently stopped attending Sunday school as I couldn't take anymore the months of continually correcting and talking to our children about wrong teachings and focus. My children used to come out of Sunday school so happy and when I asked what they learned they would talk about Christ. And now they come out unhappy talking about amusement parks, vacations to Hawaii, and excuses why not to visit nursing homes because it is like murder just getting old people sick...

We do love these people and want to be a blessing and support but I can't wholeheartedly support these things and I don't have much say in doing anything else.

Please help with any advice. Anyone, please.
I think if I was in a place where there was none of our churches around, I would regularity attend a local church and support it the best I could. I believe that is better than staying at home.
However I would absolutely not raise my family in that situation because of the influence. At the same time if moving is simply not an option, God will be faithful to you! It will simply be much more difficult to raise and teach a family without a community to strengthen and reinforce Biblical beliefs and practices. But I do believe it is possible. Consider Noah.
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Hats Off
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Re: Denominationalism

Post by Hats Off »

RZehr wrote: Although I think I can honestly say that our church life hasn't always been wonderful, and I can honestly say that I don't hold pedigree in esteem, and sometimes I wonder about how biblical we are at times, and there are decisions that I don't wholeheartedly support, I suppose you are right with your assessment of my circumstances.

I do love and appreciate and support our church and what we are trying to promote and believe. And I am tremendously blessed beyond belief!
I would just echo the above words. I am currently struggling to support to the extend I want to, but I would still repeat what I told my son at a time they had gone through a period of struggle in finding a church home "We can put up with quite a bit in order to be part of a fellowship like we do have." We are truly blessed to never have experienced things like Josh and Wade have in their journey.

Wade, sometimes it may be easier to explain things to the children when in your position. When we are part of a fellowship and don't feel comfortable letting our children go with "the crowd" that may be more difficult. My two granddaughters were the only youth at church on Sunday because all the others had gone to another district to participate in something we had always discouraged for our children.
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