Legalism?

General Christian Theology
MaxPC
Posts: 9044
Joined: Sat Oct 22, 2016 9:09 pm
Location: Former full time RVers
Affiliation: PlainRomanCatholic
Contact:

Re: Legalism?

Post by MaxPC »

Adam wrote:I think we should be careful about equating obedience to the words of Jesus and the apostles with legalism. Sometimes people start out obeying more out of fear or obligation than out of love. That isn't necessarily a bad thing. Obedience for any reason is better than disobedience. For example, a recent convert may not feel fully convicted about watching certain TV shows that have inappropriate content, but walking in obedience, even if it is just outward at first and not from the heart, is better than watching the inappropriate content. Perhaps he could be accused of legalism because his heart isn't really in it, but over time he may see the value of obedience and his heart will change from a 'have to' mindset to a 'want to' mindset. Nevertheless, obeying out of love is the ideal. Mature Christian faith obeys out of love. But obedience out of fear is better than disobedience out of a fear of being called 'legalistic'.

I see legalism more as it relates to obeying man-made rules that are extra-biblical and finding apparent loopholes to avoid obeying the plain meaning of what Jesus and the apostles taught. The primary problem of the Pharisees is not legalism but disobedience. They were obedient in the minor matters of the law. Jesus recognizes this obedience and does not castigate them for being legalistic. But he rebukes them for their disobedience in weightier matters and also for disobeying God's laws for the sake of following their man-made traditions.
:up: :up:
0 x
Max (Plain Catholic)
Mt 24:35
Proverbs 18:2 A fool does not delight in understanding but only in revealing his own mind.
1 Corinthians 3:19 For the wisdom of this world is folly with God
Heirbyadoption
Posts: 1012
Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2016 1:57 pm
Affiliation: Brethren

Re: Legalism?

Post by Heirbyadoption »

Adam wrote:I see legalism more as it relates to obeying man-made rules that are extra-biblical and finding apparent loopholes to avoid obeying the plain meaning of what Jesus and the apostles taught. The primary problem of the Pharisees is not legalism but disobedience. They were obedient in the minor matters of the law. Jesus recognizes this obedience and does not castigate them for being legalistic. But he rebukes them for their disobedience in weightier matters and also for disobeying God's laws for the sake of following their man-made traditions.
I'm not necessarily in disagreement, but the rather specific tenor of Jesus' comments logically seems to suggest to me also that within His objections was a negative view against the actual creation of those extra-Biblical "commandments of men" just as much as his objection against teaching them as doctrine. Unless I've grossly misread the context, perhaps...?
0 x
KingdomBuilder
Posts: 1482
Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2016 9:00 pm
Affiliation: church of Christ

Re: Legalism?

Post by KingdomBuilder »

Overall, I'd imagine that churches that seek to have an applied doctrine are more likely to drift into legalism, and churches that do not have applied doctrine are more likely to drift into apostasy. Would y'all agree?
0 x
Ponder anew what the Almighty can do
User avatar
Bootstrap
Posts: 14448
Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2016 9:59 am
Affiliation: Mennonite

Re: Legalism?

Post by Bootstrap »

KingdomBuilder wrote:Overall, I'd imagine that churches that seek to have an applied doctrine are more likely to drift into legalism, and churches that do not have applied doctrine are more likely to drift into apostasy. Would y'all agree?
How are you using the term "applied doctrine" here? Did Jesus have an applied doctrine? What did it look like?
0 x
Is it biblical? Is it Christlike? Is it loving? Is it true? How can I find out?
KingdomBuilder
Posts: 1482
Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2016 9:00 pm
Affiliation: church of Christ

Re: Legalism?

Post by KingdomBuilder »

Bootstrap wrote:How are you using the term "applied doctrine" here?
Church groups that seek to meaningfully, practically apply what they believe. Sturdy examples of groups today might be JWs, CAs, SDAs, and some Holiness groups.

I intend to get back to the other part of your question later.
0 x
Ponder anew what the Almighty can do
User avatar
Bootstrap
Posts: 14448
Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2016 9:59 am
Affiliation: Mennonite

Re: Legalism?

Post by Bootstrap »

KingdomBuilder wrote:
Bootstrap wrote:How are you using the term "applied doctrine" here?
Church groups that seek to meaningfully, practically apply what they believe. Sturdy examples of groups today might be JWs, CAs, SDAs, and some Holiness groups.
Then I'm guessing that the danger of legalism depends a great deal on what we believe. If we really believe what Jesus taught, and really practice what we preach, then I don't think that will lead to legalism. Or apostasy.

There are many people who practice what they preach, but preach something that Jesus might not recognize. American Christianity is full of false gospels that really should be rejected, that's not the same thing as rejecting Jesus. There are others who don't live out what they preach. We aren't doing well enough at showing people how to be faithful disciples.

We need to come back to Jesus, back to the Bible, to be vulnerable and open to God's Spirit among us. I believe God is doing many new things that will require new wineskins, perhaps more than one kind of wineskin. We need to start by remembering the wine.
KingdomBuilder wrote:I intend to get back to the other part of your question later.
I'm really interested in your answer.
0 x
Is it biblical? Is it Christlike? Is it loving? Is it true? How can I find out?
CADude
Posts: 65
Joined: Tue Oct 31, 2017 4:43 pm
Location: Southeast PA
Affiliation: Consrvt. Anabaptist

Re: Legalism?

Post by CADude »

KingdomBuilder wrote:Overall, I'd imagine that churches that seek to have an applied doctrine are more likely to drift into legalism, and churches that do not have applied doctrine are more likely to drift into apostasy. Would y'all agree?
How does one reconcile the fact that every Anabaptist group has different "applied doctrine"? To clarify, if God leads every church/fellowship/denomination to make the rules they make, why don't they all agree? It's probably better not to hijack this thread as this is really a totally separate question from the legalism topic being discussed and if we want to discuss this then someone should probably create a new thread.

But in the light of that question, at some point one starts to wonder if church standards (applied doctrine), especially the dogmatic sort, are analogous to the rules the Pharisees had created, and thus constitute a type of legalism.

As to what KingdomBuilder is asking here, I feel reluctant to draw a conclusion. I think I understand the question, but to be honest, legalism is apostasy. Apostasy is the natural state of things, and humans have a real tendency to drift into it. Apostasy as a result of legalism, self-righteousness, etc., or apostasy as a result of worldliness, lust, idolatry, etc., is all apostasy.
0 x
User avatar
steve-in-kville
Posts: 9516
Joined: Wed Nov 02, 2016 5:36 pm
Location: Pennsylvania
Affiliation: Hippie Anabaptist

Re: Legalism?

Post by steve-in-kville »

CADude wrote: How does one reconcile the fact that every Anabaptist group has different "applied doctrine"? To clarify, if God leads every church/fellowship/denomination to make the rules they make, why don't they all agree? It's probably better not to hijack this thread as this is really a totally separate question from the legalism topic being discussed and if we want to discuss this then someone should probably create a new thread.
I don't want to hijack this thread either, but I have to wonder if God is truly happy with what many of our plain circles have become: constant in-fighting over technology, divisions, power struggles. Yes, this has been happening since the beginning of the Christian church. But just in the past decade I feel its gotten worse. Almost every large conference represented in our area has suffered a split in the last 5 years or so.... Pilgrim, EPMC even the Horning church had a splinter group break away.

All over man's opinion of technology!
0 x
I self-identify as a conspiracy theorist. My pronouns are told/you/so.

Owner/admin at https://milepost81.com/
For parents, railfans, and much more!
User avatar
Bootstrap
Posts: 14448
Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2016 9:59 am
Affiliation: Mennonite

Re: Legalism?

Post by Bootstrap »

CADude wrote:I think I understand the question, but to be honest, legalism is apostasy. Apostasy is the natural state of things, and humans have a real tendency to drift into it. Apostasy as a result of legalism, self-righteousness, etc., or apostasy as a result of worldliness, lust, idolatry, etc., is all apostasy.
Very well said.

Let me add one thing. Mature Christian growth comes from looking at our own shortcomings. As human beings, we are often tempted to justify ourselves by comparing ourselves to the other extreme. The worldly Christian is tempted to point out that he is not being legalistic. The legalistic Christian is tempted to point out that he is not being worldly.

Whenever we justify ourselves by pointing out the shortcomings of others, that's a warning sign. Whenever we spend more time and energy thinking about someone else's sinfulness than our own, that's a warning sign. Of course, to be able to look our own sinfulness straight in the face, we have to look at it in light of the grace of God. Only his truth breaks down our self-deception. Only his grace gives us the courage to see clearly. Together.
0 x
Is it biblical? Is it Christlike? Is it loving? Is it true? How can I find out?
User avatar
Josh
Posts: 23829
Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2016 6:23 pm
Location: 1000' ASL
Affiliation: The church of God

Re: Legalism?

Post by Josh »

steve-in-kville wrote:
CADude wrote: How does one reconcile the fact that every Anabaptist group has different "applied doctrine"? To clarify, if God leads every church/fellowship/denomination to make the rules they make, why don't they all agree? It's probably better not to hijack this thread as this is really a totally separate question from the legalism topic being discussed and if we want to discuss this then someone should probably create a new thread.
I don't want to hijack this thread either, but I have to wonder if God is truly happy with what many of our plain circles have become: constant in-fighting over technology, divisions, power struggles. Yes, this has been happening since the beginning of the Christian church. But just in the past decade I feel its gotten worse. Almost every large conference represented in our area has suffered a split in the last 5 years or so.... Pilgrim, EPMC even the Horning church had a splinter group break away.

All over man's opinion of technology!
I feel duty-bound to point out Pilgrim was a break off from EPMC and if one goes back a century, Lancaster (where EPMC) and Hornings at one point split off from one another.

This is not the unique domain of Anabaptists. The early church suffered many divisions, some of which persist to this day. In present times, various Baptist groups have spawned multitudes of denominations, which often did not mutually recognise one another as Christians.

Attempts at ecumenicalism also do not seem fruitful. The fruit we have is very liberal groups like the Uniting Church or United Methodists - which in turn now have their own breakaways forming over lifestyle issues.

Perhaps the work of One Body is Jesus’ work itself and no man can make it happen no matter how hard we try. Our domain is to be at peace with our close brethren. And isn’t that where all these disputations usually start?
0 x
Post Reply