The Church of my Dreams

General Christian Theology
MaxPC
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Re: The Church of my Dreams

Post by MaxPC »

Neto wrote:Here it is, unedited, from 07-29-2011
Dream list for a new congregation

(I use the word ‘dream’ to be clear that I realize that some compromise is necessary for all of us, and I am of course willing to compromise as well, although less in some areas than in others.)

A Mission Oriented Congregation – Interest in reaching the lost - both here and in foreign cultures - is essential for a living congregation. A clear understanding of heaven & hell, of the eternal destiny of the lost, is a central doctrine for making missions make sense.

A Musical Congregation - (I do not use the term ‘music’ to distinguish use of instruments vs voice alone) I believe that two things commonly in practice today lead to a loss of musical ability in a congregation: use of words only projected on the wall or screen, and singly mostly simple choruses in unison only.
As to style of music, I personally prefer hymns, either old or modern, and the older choruses over ‘worship songs’, but the most important thing is that the words are theologically sound, and not overly repetitive. Instruments, if or when used, should not drown out the voice. In respect to music to which one might listen in other settings, I would like to see the distinction drawn between Christian and secular music based on the lyrics, not on the music style.

A Congregation where Community, or ‘body life’, is Evident – I don’t know how to implement this, because I believe it should happen without becoming institutionalized, but I feel that it is imperative that the members of a congregation have close associations with others in the congregation outside of the regularly scheduled meetings. Ideally the members ought to have some common interests or activities which result in ‘chance’, or unplanned, encounters. This gives opportunity for a sense of community to develop and grow without being mandated, or institutionalized by church programs like “small groups”.

A Congregation whose Members are Accountable to One Another – As important as it is to be accountable to one another, I do not believe that it should be necessary to talk about it a lot. This is something that will happen naturally if there is closeness between members of the congregation, and genuine spiritual concern, not only for one another, but concern for one’s own character as well.
Accountability should be seen as between equals, not having different standards for those in leadership in comparison to the ‘general membership’. Accountability is impossible unless there are clear congregational guidelines for conduct.

A Congregation Committed to Avoiding Super-Sizing itself – I would like to see agreement from the beginning that at some certain size (I would suggest around 175 members) plans are made to divide the group. (Maybe this should come naturally, too….)

A Congregation Actively Engaged in Church government – Having grown up in a congregation (and denomination) that was decidedly congregational in church governance, and now after some years in congregations which practice a more ‘top down’ sort of governance, I have concluded that while the congregational model does have some dangers (I saw a tract by George Brunk once which called it heretical), the other has some real dangers as well. The argument goes that if the congregation has a say in the direction of guidelines for conduct, for instance, then it is just a majority rule, and it will soon ‘go down the tubes’. This exposes a mistrust of the laity on the part of the ministers. More responsible choices need to be exercised on the part of the congregation, and more trust needs to be exercised on the part of the ministers. I believe that one of the benefits of the congregational governance model is that the burden of seeing guidelines for conduct carried out faithfully is not born by the minister(s) alone, but by all responsible members of the congregation. It is sometimes easier to sway one person than it is to sway an entire congregation.

A Congregation that Values Understanding the Scriptures - Openness to use of translations other than the KJV in public reading, etc. will encourage more people to read the scriptures in their own language. I realize that it is convenient to use a single translation for congregational readings, but words are already put on the screen for all sorts of other things, so this no longer seems to be a valid argument. The KJV was a modern translation 400 years ago, and the people of that time were able to hear the Scriptures in familiar language. Why should not the people of this era have the same privilege? I believe that insistence on the continued use of an archaic translation actually prevents people from understanding what is being read.

A Congregation that is Kingdom Oriented – While I do ascribe to a belief in non-resistance, I believe that this belief must be based upon a clear understanding of the two kingdoms that are at work in the world, the Kingdom of God, and the kingdom of the world. Non-resistance only makes sense when understood from the consciousness of the fact that no one can belong to both kingdoms. Spiritually there are no dual citizens.

A Congregation that is committed to a Life-style that is consistent with a non-manipulative understanding of the Scripture (ie, not twisting Scripture to fit one’s culture) – It would be my wish that clothing styles be modest and in keeping with clear standards based on Scripture. Extremes in men’s hair styles would be avoided. The Scriptural veiling would be used by the women, and children would be brought up to honor and respect this practice. Clarification to the effect that the veiling is a head-covering, not a hair-covering might aid in practice consistent with scripture. (I’ve heard that some girls are cutting their hair so as to reduce the size of the bun, and thus the size of the covering. This seems to have developed from the false assumption that it is the hair which should be covered.)

A Congregation that will avoid the Entrapment of Organized Sports – It seems to me that when sports are engaged in as fellowship activities it does not detract from spiritual pursuits, but when a congregation participates in a league, where teams are organized for competition with other congregations with play-offs, etc, the mood changes away from fellowship, and demands of time began to push out more important pursuits.
Neto's list is very nearly identical to mine though I'm less musically oriented. I like to listen to it but you wouldn't want to hear me actually sing. :shock:

I would especially like to see parishes remain small for a better sense of brotherhood and community. The parish we attend now is smaller than average but is still larger than 175 families. It also has an excellent adult Sunday Scripture Study.

Unfortunately not all the women cover at Mass though some do. Not all the women follow strict modesty standards though I haven't noticed them being vulgar either. My wife would like to see a more strict modesty standard and full time covering: me, I stay out of those discussions of other women's clothing as that can get me into trouble. :roll: :lol: I think it's enough for me to make sure our sons and grandsons follow our modesty standards.

As to the sports: I'm with Neto 100%. Sports can become an obsession for some men, becoming a distraction from our true priorities in discipleship. When I was a young man (about 65 years ago), I would let sports and the discussion of sports consume far too much of my time. Hindsight is 20/20.
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Max (Plain Catholic)
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Sudsy
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Re: The Church of my Dreams

Post by Sudsy »

The Church of my Dreams, if I ever dreamed of my view of a perfect church, which I don't, would involve something like this and I'll stop at 10 -

1) A pastor who preaches the clear message of salvation that Jesus came to save us from our sins - past, present and future.

2) A congregation that was primarily focused and trained to reach the unchurched. Obey the great commission.

3) A congregation that encouraged each other to follow Jesus in personal sanctification as each understands the scriptures.

4) A congregation that truly loves and serves one another despite any differences we have in our Christian practise.

5) A congregation that join in to participate in forms of worship that relate to our modern world.

6) A fasting and praying church to see the Kingdom of God grow.

7) A reforming church that is not afraid to study history and make adjustments that will further The Kingdom.

8) A church that take quantity as serious as quality. A steadily growing church in numbers and spirituality.

9) A church that accepts that Christ is building His Church and that church is not any of our current church forms.

10) A church that points people to Jesus and not our specific way of doing church.

Meanwhile, back to the real world, imo, searching for a church of my dreams would be a waste of time and is too self focused. It really isn't about me and my ideas of a dream church. When I get my eyes on Jesus, I see a world that drastically needs Him in their life and regardless of the church I attend, it is my failings to reach this world that most concerns me in my dreams.
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KingdomBuilder
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Re: The Church of my Dreams

Post by KingdomBuilder »

Sorry for joining this ballgame a little late, but I just haven't been on here much lately.

1. Evangelism/ Growth: A church that has no "new" members to show is sick, whether those in it think so or not. It is failing in a critical area spelled out by the Lord in the great commission. The lack of growth may often be blamed on the fact that they simply have a truly Biblical faith that is far too "offensive" to many, but these statements display a sense of pride and laxness that I'm not comfortable with. This also may include not planting every new church in the middle of absolutely rural areas.

2. Relations with the World: My dream church would be unstained from the world in spirit and practice in the best ways it knows how, but I do not wish to see a level of disgust/ fear towards the World. My dream church would be separated, but mournful of those who are still of the World.. ideally, this sorrow would push them to interact, not retract.

3. Unity: Church unity is very important to me. I'd also extend this unity to other Christians who may in fact walk very differently... My dream church would visibly be identified by their care and desire to focus on unity of purpose across the different denominations; still without conforming.

4. Discomfort: I'd like a church that is creative and risky in it's endeavors to further advance the Gospel- one not afraid to try things outside of the familiar and traditional.

5. Discipline: My dream church would have a healthy level of discipline enforced by the elders and accepted by the congregation. The goal of the discipline should be repentance and reconciliation, not creating a "pure church".

6. "Straight-shooters": A congregation of straight-shooters is important to me. I wouldn't function well in a church that sweeps certain things to the side, or one that is subtly subversive. If a problem exists in the church, bring it forward and transparently work for resolution.

7. Diverse congregation: This would be racial, ethnic, professional, geographic, and generational.

8. Preach and practice respect for the temples: My dream church would make healthful living a concern. A priority on health respects God's creation and it helps us to be good stewards for God. (The only churches I know to practice this would be SDA)
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temporal1
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Re: The Church of my Dreams

Post by temporal1 »

2017
Josh wrote: Tue Oct 24, 2017 6:10 pm It turns out the church of my dreams is the one God so ordained to place me in. It is not what I wanted but definitely is what I need.

one of the most helpful messages on MD-MN is about how church is important, even when it’s not the “church of my dreams.”
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