Fasting prior to Baptism

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Sudsy
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Re: Fasting prior to Baptism

Post by Sudsy »

Perhaps a separate thread someone may consider making about how ordinances (which I believe are the Anabaptist view) are different from sacraments.

Regarding fasting prior to water baptism, it would seem then that those who consider certain Christian rites as sacraments believe in this preparation of fasting necessary to receiving grace through the Holy Spirit when the rite is observed. Again, something not spelled out as such or seen as observed in the NT. The two primary Anabaptist rites are water baptism and communion and it surprises me how few times in a year this is observed by some Anabaptists although scripture does say 'as often as you do this in remembrance of Me'.

And even communion in the NT doesn't speak of a fast before observance. Communion does have a preparation spelled out in the NT to first examine ourselves prior to taking the wine and bread. In the context here there are differing opinions of this examining ourselves also. My belief is that this examining is about considering how we regard and treat each other within the local church participants as this was the problem discussed in the preceding verses. And with that lack of preparation there is a warning of sickness and death can come on those not preparing themselves to recognize ourselves as one in Christ and to treat each other accordingly. Well, that too could be a separate thread.

So, back to fasting - from what I have found in Anabaptism only the Old Order Amish fast prior to communion yet I didn't find any Anabaptists that call for a fast prior to water baptism. Perhaps this is because Anabaptists don't regard any ordinance as providing special grace over any other ordinance.
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Valerie
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Re: Fasting prior to Baptism

Post by Valerie »

Sudsy wrote:Perhaps a separate thread someone may consider making about how ordinances (which I believe are the Anabaptist view) are different from sacraments.

Regarding fasting prior to water baptism, it would seem then that those who consider certain Christian rites as sacraments believe in this preparation of fasting necessary to receiving grace through the Holy Spirit when the rite is observed. Again, something not spelled out as such or seen as observed in the NT. The two primary Anabaptist rites are water baptism and communion and it surprises me how few times in a year this is observed by some Anabaptists although scripture does say 'as often as you do this in remembrance of Me'.

And even communion in the NT doesn't speak of a fast before observance. Communion does have a preparation spelled out in the NT to first examine ourselves prior to taking the wine and bread. In the context here there are differing opinions of this examining ourselves also. My belief is that this examining is about considering how we regard and treat each other within the local church participants as this was the problem discussed in the preceding verses. And with that lack of preparation there is a warning of sickness and death can come on those not preparing themselves to recognize ourselves as one in Christ and to treat each other accordingly. Well, that too could be a separate thread.

So, back to fasting - from what I have found in Anabaptism only the Old Order Amish fast prior to communion yet I didn't find any Anabaptists that call for a fast prior to water baptism. Perhaps this is because Anabaptists don't regard any ordinance as providing special grace over any other ordinance.
It's not just Anabaptists, I was listening to Christian radio yesterday- and of course Evangelicals do no ascribe sacraments (which are mysteries) to the same things that the ancient Churches did and do- but I think there is a blindness to this because there are places where this 'grace' was given that one would HAVE to recognize as mysterious- for example when Naaman (2 Kings 5:1-19) was healed by washing himself 7 times in the Jordan- and how about the pool of Bethsaida: John 5:1-15New King James Version (NKJV)

A Man Healed at the Pool of Bethesda
5 After this there was a feast of the Jews, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem. 2 Now there is in Jerusalem by the Sheep Gate a pool, which is called in Hebrew, Bethesda,[a] having five porches. 3 In these lay a great multitude of sick people, blind, lame, paralyzed, waiting for the moving of the water. 4 For an angel went down at a certain time into the pool and stirred up the water; then whoever stepped in first, after the stirring of the water, was made well of whatever disease he had. 5 Now a certain man was there who had an infirmity thirty-eight years. 6 When Jesus saw him lying there, and knew that he already had been in that condition a long time, He said to him, “Do you want to be made well?”

7 The sick man answered Him, “Sir, I have no man to put me into the pool when the water is stirred up; but while I am coming, another steps down before me.”

8 Jesus said to him, “Rise, take up your bed and walk.” 9 And immediately the man was made well, took up his bed, and walked.

We see that what some might call 'superstition' is a form of grace that God bestows in certain ways, some by 'water'-

Fasting- remember Jesus said that His followers could not cast out certain demons when they had failed because that 'kind' could only come out by prayer and fasting.

Why? Jesus gave His disciples power- to be able to do what He did. Remember when the woman with the issue of blood touched His robe, in the hopes of being healed (and she was!) and Jesus knew that 'power had gone out of Him' (Luke 8:43-48)

I think we barely tap into this- why? Many reasons. A variety of reasons make us fall short of really following Jesus in all the ways He said we could/should.

However, I do understand that there are deeper truths that are found in sacraments that are mysterious, are grace and that don't necessarily MAKE one a better Christian, a more obedient Christian, none the less they are there in Scriptures. It is God's work in these mysterious, not our own.

Yesterday (Oct 22) was the commemoration of St. Abercius- 2nd century Bishop- people assume the Church was fallen away by then:

http://www.traditioninaction.org/SOD/j2 ... 10_22.html
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Sudsy
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Re: Fasting prior to Baptism

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Valerie wrote: It's not just Anabaptists, I was listening to Christian radio yesterday- and of course Evangelicals do no ascribe sacraments (which are mysteries) to the same things that the ancient Churches did and do- but I think there is a blindness to this because there are places where this 'grace' was given that one would HAVE to recognize as mysterious- for example when Naaman (2 Kings 5:1-19) was healed by washing himself 7 times in the Jordan- and how about the pool of Bethsaida: John 5:1-15New King James Version (NKJV)

A Man Healed at the Pool of Bethesda
5 After this there was a feast of the Jews, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem. 2 Now there is in Jerusalem by the Sheep Gate a pool, which is called in Hebrew, Bethesda,[a] having five porches. 3 In these lay a great multitude of sick people, blind, lame, paralyzed, waiting for the moving of the water. 4 For an angel went down at a certain time into the pool and stirred up the water; then whoever stepped in first, after the stirring of the water, was made well of whatever disease he had. 5 Now a certain man was there who had an infirmity thirty-eight years. 6 When Jesus saw him lying there, and knew that he already had been in that condition a long time, He said to him, “Do you want to be made well?”

7 The sick man answered Him, “Sir, I have no man to put me into the pool when the water is stirred up; but while I am coming, another steps down before me.”

8 Jesus said to him, “Rise, take up your bed and walk.” 9 And immediately the man was made well, took up his bed, and walked.

We see that what some might call 'superstition' is a form of grace that God bestows in certain ways, some by 'water'-

Fasting- remember Jesus said that His followers could not cast out certain demons when they had failed because that 'kind' could only come out by prayer and fasting.

Why? Jesus gave His disciples power- to be able to do what He did. Remember when the woman with the issue of blood touched His robe, in the hopes of being healed (and she was!) and Jesus knew that 'power had gone out of Him' (Luke 8:43-48)

I think we barely tap into this- why? Many reasons. A variety of reasons make us fall short of really following Jesus in all the ways He said we could/should.

However, I do understand that there are deeper truths that are found in sacraments that are mysterious, are grace and that don't necessarily MAKE one a better Christian, a more obedient Christian, none the less they are there in Scriptures. It is God's work in these mysterious, not our own.

Yesterday (Oct 22) was the commemoration of St. Abercius- 2nd century Bishop- people assume the Church was fallen away by then:

http://www.traditioninaction.org/SOD/j2 ... 10_22.html


A couple curious questions -

1) So, you agree with the belief that fasting is a means of obtaining grace through some or all of the 7 EO sacraments or is fasting only applicable to certain ones of these 7 ?

2) Since the Didache requires the one to be baptised to first fast and a baby is not required to first fast, if the parents do not fast does saving grace or regeneration occur in the baby ?

In the link to Saint Albercius I found it interesting that although they did not believe him, he lied about what occured when he destroyed the statues. Doesn't seem very 'saintly'. Or do we just write this off as his human side ? I wonder if he repented of this lie.

To me, the most marvellous display of grace is when God adopts a person into His family and gives them a whole new attitude towards God and spiritual things. This occurs through repenting and believing in Christ as our Saviour and Lord and we sing and stand amazed at this miraculous work of grace in a person. Not of works but by grace through faith a new creation appears. From spiritually dead to spiritually alive. And that grace will lead us home. Personally, I don't see any other forms of grace through our religious practises that can match that although I believe God's grace is given us every day in many ways.

I do think that both fasting and prayer are probably the two biggest lacks in Christianity today that is needed to get us back into a relationship with Jesus. Any thoughts on Piper's explanation ? -

Remember the text often quoted here 'Lord, Lord haven't we ------. (followed by a series of good works) and Jesus said He never knew them. There was no relationship with Him established. Fasting and prayer is all about relationship. I was reminded of this in a house bible study last week as my prayer life and fasting had fallen off. Yes, God knows what we are going to pray about before we pray but He still wants to talk and listen to Him in a sincere way.

I know this is beyond fasting prior to baptism but gets into the whole idea of why fast and is it still an important act of obedience for a Christian.
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Valerie
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Re: Fasting prior to Baptism

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Reading the article about St. Abercius, it seemed he was sending them out to tell the crowd something 'ridiculous' about their false god's- sort of a mocking so to speak- he knew that they knew, that was not really happened-that's how it comes across to me, and you will note that after this, how God continued to use him in that situation- he was obedient to what the angel (messenger from God) told him to do to the idols- and he faithful carried this out-

Regarding John Piper's Q & A about fasting I think that he touches on part of what it is about-evidently though, this would not have been the same reason for Jesus' fasting-
It is an area where I am weak for sure- it may be that as the Didache pointed out- they corporately fasted on Wed & Fri as the Church- (to separate themselves from the Jews who apparently fasted Tuesdays & Thursdays) and there were spiritual/symbolic reasons for chosing Wed & Fri for the NT Church, and they practice this to this day- when you 'know' that the whole Church makes it a practice on Wed & Fri then if you need to privately fast on other days for other reasons, you are accustomed to the discipline of it and would (I would think) find it something you don't wrestle with as much-
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Re: Fasting prior to Baptism

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Does it really matter what day you fast on?

If so, why are the scriptures silent?
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Sudsy
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Re: Fasting prior to Baptism

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Valerie wrote:Reading the article about St. Abercius, it seemed he was sending them out to tell the crowd something 'ridiculous' about their false god's- sort of a mocking so to speak- he knew that they knew, that was not really happened-that's how it comes across to me, and you will note that after this, how God continued to use him in that situation- he was obedient to what the angel (messenger from God) told him to do to the idols- and he faithful carried this out-

I can see where it can be mocking and that could take us down an interesting thread on who or what a Christian can mock. In this case it was the idols themselves so it would seem this type of mocking is OK. Regarding mocking people, as Jesus sometimes did, when is this permitted for a Christian and when not ? Well, thats another possible thread.

Regarding John Piper's Q & A about fasting I think that he touches on part of what it is about-evidently though, this would not have been the same reason for Jesus' fasting-
It is an area where I am weak for sure- it may be that as the Didache pointed out- they corporately fasted on Wed & Fri as the Church- (to separate themselves from the Jews who apparently fasted Tuesdays & Thursdays) and there were spiritual/symbolic reasons for chosing Wed & Fri for the NT Church, and they practice this to this day- when you 'know' that the whole Church makes it a practice on Wed & Fri then if you need to privately fast on other days for other reasons, you are accustomed to the discipline of it and would (I would think) find it something you don't wrestle with as much-

Valerie do you know the extent of this fasting on Mondays and Wednesdays ? Was it water only for those days ? Missing one meal ? Was it to be done for a corporate purpose or just individual reasons ? If you don't know off the top of your head, thats fine, I can do some research.
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Valerie
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Re: Fasting prior to Baptism

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Sudsy wrote:
Valerie wrote:Reading the article about St. Abercius, it seemed he was sending them out to tell the crowd something 'ridiculous' about their false god's- sort of a mocking so to speak- he knew that they knew, that was not really happened-that's how it comes across to me, and you will note that after this, how God continued to use him in that situation- he was obedient to what the angel (messenger from God) told him to do to the idols- and he faithful carried this out-

I can see where it can be mocking and that could take us down an interesting thread on who or what a Christian can mock. In this case it was the idols themselves so it would seem this type of mocking is OK. Regarding mocking people, as Jesus sometimes did, when is this permitted for a Christian and when not ? Well, thats another possible thread.

Regarding John Piper's Q & A about fasting I think that he touches on part of what it is about-evidently though, this would not have been the same reason for Jesus' fasting-
It is an area where I am weak for sure- it may be that as the Didache pointed out- they corporately fasted on Wed & Fri as the Church- (to separate themselves from the Jews who apparently fasted Tuesdays & Thursdays) and there were spiritual/symbolic reasons for chosing Wed & Fri for the NT Church, and they practice this to this day- when you 'know' that the whole Church makes it a practice on Wed & Fri then if you need to privately fast on other days for other reasons, you are accustomed to the discipline of it and would (I would think) find it something you don't wrestle with as much-

Valerie do you know the extent of this fasting on Mondays and Wednesdays ? Was it water only for those days ? Missing one meal ? Was it to be done for a corporate purpose or just individual reasons ? If you don't know off the top of your head, thats fine, I can do some research.
The Jews fasted Tuesdays & Thursdays- the Church (according to the 1st century Didache) began fasting on Wednesdays & Fridays, I can't quote exactly why but it had to do with 1) fasting different days than the unbelieving Jews & 2) Fasting on days that were significant to the Jesus death, the days leading up to it- and Good Friday- these days are still the fasting days of the EO Church today that has not changed since then. Why corporately? The brotherhood I suppose? The Jews did it 2x a week corporately, but were not limited to that- I only know what is allowed 'today' as far as the Wed & Fri fast of the Church- and there are stricter fasting periods (before Christmas, the 1st Advent of Christ) and before Pascha (called Easter by the west) but on the weekly corporate fasting there are certain things to abstain from, but you can do more yourself, and the rule is to not be concerned with how 'the other guy' is fasting, this is between you and the Lord.
Apart from the Church fasting together, personal fasting is always allowed- and that can be fasting from food or other things that we can have passion for-
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Re: Fasting prior to Baptism

Post by Valerie »

Josh wrote:Does it really matter what day you fast on?

If so, why are the scriptures silent?
It's the brotherhood's decision- as in other matters of the faith- the Church that Christ said He would built formed a Holy Spirit led 'brotherhood'

Let me ask you Josh- Jesus called 12 Apostles to start the Church- do we know everything about what all these 12 were doing according to Scripture?
If you can name all 12 Apostles and inform by Scripture what each one was doing from the time they were commissioned forward, I will trust that you are well informed about the Church Jesus started. Jesus never said "Scripture alone". That would be unbiblical.
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Re: Fasting prior to Baptism

Post by Hats Off »

Valerie wrote:
Josh wrote:Does it really matter what day you fast on?

If so, why are the scriptures silent?
It's the brotherhood's decision- as in other matters of the faith- the Church that Christ said He would built formed a Holy Spirit led 'brotherhood'

Let me ask you Josh- Jesus called 12 Apostles to start the Church- do we know everything about what all these 12 were doing according to Scripture?
If you can name all 12 Apostles and inform by Scripture what each one was doing from the time they were commissioned forward, I will trust that you are well informed about the Church Jesus started. Jesus never said "Scripture alone". That would be unbiblical.
Revelation 22
18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

21 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.

King James Version (KJV)
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Sudsy
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Re: Fasting prior to Baptism

Post by Sudsy »

Hats Off wrote:
Valerie wrote:
Josh wrote:Does it really matter what day you fast on?

If so, why are the scriptures silent?
It's the brotherhood's decision- as in other matters of the faith- the Church that Christ said He would built formed a Holy Spirit led 'brotherhood'

Let me ask you Josh- Jesus called 12 Apostles to start the Church- do we know everything about what all these 12 were doing according to Scripture?
If you can name all 12 Apostles and inform by Scripture what each one was doing from the time they were commissioned forward, I will trust that you are well informed about the Church Jesus started. Jesus never said "Scripture alone". That would be unbiblical.
Revelation 22
18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

21 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.

King James Version (KJV)
Question Hats Off - this text you gave, it sounds like you believe this applies to the canon of scripture not the book of Revelation. If so, where do you get that view from ?
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