Fasting prior to Baptism

General Christian Theology
Sudsy
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Re: Fasting prior to Baptism

Post by Sudsy »

Valerie wrote: The Jews fasted Tuesdays & Thursdays- the Church (according to the 1st century Didache) began fasting on Wednesdays & Fridays, I can't quote exactly why but it had to do with 1) fasting different days than the unbelieving Jews & 2) Fasting on days that were significant to the Jesus death, the days leading up to it- and Good Friday- these days are still the fasting days of the EO Church today that has not changed since then. Why corporately? The brotherhood I suppose? The Jews did it 2x a week corporately, but were not limited to that- I only know what is allowed 'today' as far as the Wed & Fri fast of the Church- and there are stricter fasting periods (before Christmas, the 1st Advent of Christ) and before Pascha (called Easter by the west) but on the weekly corporate fasting there are certain things to abstain from, but you can do more yourself, and the rule is to not be concerned with how 'the other guy' is fasting, this is between you and the Lord.
Apart from the Church fasting together, personal fasting is always allowed- and that can be fasting from food or other things that we can have passion for-
Is there scripture to support the underlined ?

Regarding fasting privately (not concerned with how 'the other guy' is fasting) I think the scripture on this secret fasting is about not us looking like we are fasting when we fast. Don't put on some look of being 'starved' to impress others we are fasting. Matthew 6:16,17. I think some don't want to discuss fasting as they see it as a secret act and it could be that is an excuse to not talk about an area being neglected.

I agree we are to do certain things privately between God and ourselves and not in public where we may do these to try to impress others in our piety. I, personally, don't care for the practise of a 'round of prayer' in some prayer meetings as it is too easy to attempt to impress others on how good we are in wording prayers. I have caught myself doing just that and now prefer to keep my prayer life private. I've often wondered just what kind of praying went on in the early church when they prayed in 'one accord'. Did they discuss the issues to pray about then in 'one accord' pray privately to God about them or did they do this 'round of prayer' thing where everyone rewords the same issues over and over ? Well, thats another possible thread to discuss, perhaps.
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Hats Off
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Re: Fasting prior to Baptism

Post by Hats Off »

https://www.biblestudytools.com/comment ... 22-18.html
Although the warning against adding or removing apply specifically to this book, by both implication and experience, the canon of Scripture is complete with the book of Revelation:
Chafer well concludes: “The formal closing of the New Testament canon is at least intimated in Revelation Rev. 22:18+. The dissimilarity in the manner in which the two Testaments end is significant. All the unfulfilled expectation of the Old Testament is articulate as that testament closes and the last verse gives assurance of the coming of another prophet. But no continued revelation is impending as the New Testament is terminated: rather the announcement is made that the Lord Himself will soon return and the natural conclusion is that there would be no further voice speaking from heaven before the trumpet heralds the second advent of Christ. Of no small moment is the fact that since the canon of the Bible was divinely closed no attempts have been made to add to it.”5

These two warnings against additions and subtractions in their context are concerned specifically with the book of Revelation, and the primary emphasis is not on the Bible as a whole. However, since the book of Revelation is the final revelation of God’s Word, the principle behind the warning can be extended to the Bible as a whole, for the Bible as a whole is complete only with the book of Revelation.6
What I have grown up hearing, and what i believe, is very much in agreement with the above explanation.
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Valerie
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Re: Fasting prior to Baptism

Post by Valerie »

Hats Off wrote:
https://www.biblestudytools.com/comment ... 22-18.html
Although the warning against adding or removing apply specifically to this book, by both implication and experience, the canon of Scripture is complete with the book of Revelation:
Chafer well concludes: “The formal closing of the New Testament canon is at least intimated in Revelation Rev. 22:18+. The dissimilarity in the manner in which the two Testaments end is significant. All the unfulfilled expectation of the Old Testament is articulate as that testament closes and the last verse gives assurance of the coming of another prophet. But no continued revelation is impending as the New Testament is terminated: rather the announcement is made that the Lord Himself will soon return and the natural conclusion is that there would be no further voice speaking from heaven before the trumpet heralds the second advent of Christ. Of no small moment is the fact that since the canon of the Bible was divinely closed no attempts have been made to add to it.”5

These two warnings against additions and subtractions in their context are concerned specifically with the book of Revelation, and the primary emphasis is not on the Bible as a whole. However, since the book of Revelation is the final revelation of God’s Word, the principle behind the warning can be extended to the Bible as a whole, for the Bible as a whole is complete only with the book of Revelation.6
What I have grown up hearing, and what i believe, is very much in agreement with the above explanation.
Within Anabaptism though there are doctrines & rules that cannot be found in Scripture- I am not sure what the difference is- many people I have talked to left their particular Anabaptist sect saying they have unscriptural 'extra' rules too-
However there were both 'oral' and 'written' traditions (2 Thessalonians 2:15) so what was handed down by the Apostles and what the Holy Spirit guided to 'do' was not always written down, I mean people in their relationship with the Lord & the Church was a 'living' not just a 'written' relationship and life. Jesus did things outside of the 'written' Law Himself at times and was vehemently attacked for it- He didn't always follow the letter of the law-

But that passage you mention, from what I have read, does apply to Revelations- after the Reformation there were several books taken out of the Old Testament by the Reformers/Protestants- who had their own criteria I suppose-
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Valerie
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Re: Fasting prior to Baptism

Post by Valerie »

Sudsy wrote:
Valerie wrote: The Jews fasted Tuesdays & Thursdays- the Church (according to the 1st century Didache) began fasting on Wednesdays & Fridays, I can't quote exactly why but it had to do with 1) fasting different days than the unbelieving Jews & 2) Fasting on days that were significant to the Jesus death, the days leading up to it- and Good Friday- these days are still the fasting days of the EO Church today that has not changed since then. Why corporately? The brotherhood I suppose? The Jews did it 2x a week corporately, but were not limited to that- I only know what is allowed 'today' as far as the Wed & Fri fast of the Church- and there are stricter fasting periods (before Christmas, the 1st Advent of Christ) and before Pascha (called Easter by the west) but on the weekly corporate fasting there are certain things to abstain from, but you can do more yourself, and the rule is to not be concerned with how 'the other guy' is fasting, this is between you and the Lord.
Apart from the Church fasting together, personal fasting is always allowed- and that can be fasting from food or other things that we can have passion for-
Is there scripture to support the underlined ?

Probably- it was a question I had asked the priest where we were attending for awhile as well as another priest- when trying to learn about fasting- I realized the Apostles, who were Jewish, and had started the Church, would have had some influence on this- Jesus fasted 40 days- so that would have been more than the typical- certainly when one is needing to fast for personal reasons too, the scriptures don't seem to limit fasting- only not to have the 'appearance' of fasting to draw attention to ourselves, like the Pharisees who were trying to look like they were sooooo hungry, poor me! What we were taught is that part of the reason is because food is a 'passion' and fasting is a discipline too, of overcoming the passions- but other things in our life can occupy us as passions as well- so abstaining from them for a time of prayer & seeking God would be beneficial-

Regarding fasting privately (not concerned with how 'the other guy' is fasting) I think the scripture on this secret fasting is about not us looking like we are fasting when we fast. Don't put on some look of being 'starved' to impress others we are fasting. Matthew 6:16,17. I think some don't want to discuss fasting as they see it as a secret act and it could be that is an excuse to not talk about an area being neglected.

Correct- but it is discouraged also, to pay attention (during corporate fasting) to what 'the other guy' is doing, because as soon as you do that, you are entering into judging which is sinful in this area, and defeats the purpose of fasting-

I agree we are to do certain things privately between God and ourselves and not in public where we may do these to try to impress others in our piety. I, personally, don't care for the practise of a 'round of prayer' in some prayer meetings as it is too easy to attempt to impress others on how good we are in wording prayers. I have caught myself doing just that and now prefer to keep my prayer life private. I've often wondered just what kind of praying went on in the early church when they prayed in 'one accord'. Did they discuss the issues to pray about then in 'one accord' pray privately to God about them or did they do this 'round of prayer' thing where everyone rewords the same issues over and over ? Well, thats another possible thread to discuss, perhaps.
It seems the Jews, and the NT Church had prayer meetings- outloud- there are examples in Scripture about that- if it was like how you describe I am not sure, these circle type, probably since the Scriptures don't go into details about it people must guess- but we know that Jesus in the Lord's prayer said "Our Father" not "My Father" and this would be an example of how He was seemingly referring to corporate prayer-seems every church we've ever attended, has their own way- God sees the heart, the fact that you recognize the tendency to be concerned with what others are thinking I think is natural to wrestle with- we're human!
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Sudsy
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Re: Fasting prior to Baptism

Post by Sudsy »

So, it would appear that fastings that are not involving food cannot be supported by scripture to other 'passions'. Amazing what people will come up with to avoid going without food. :roll: :P
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Valerie
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Re: Fasting prior to Baptism

Post by Valerie »

Sudsy wrote:So, it would appear that fastings that are not involving food cannot be supported by scripture to other 'passions'. Amazing what people will come up with to avoid going without food. :roll: :P
That doesn't exclude people from avoiding food- it just means there may be other distractions that occupy one's attention and time that would get in the way of really seeking God- when we are doing so in a deeper way, or in need, etc-

Some people have no problem giving up food-
I do! :oops: But there would be other areas that I devote to much time & energy too- for example discussion forums-
(I noticed during Lent, some give up social media 'too' not instead of particular food)

Anyways- whatever the Lord leads one to do- (I should note that during times of fasting the expectation is to give alms from the money one saves from spending on food- give to the poor)
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Hats Off
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Re: Fasting prior to Baptism

Post by Hats Off »

Valerie wrote:
Hats Off wrote:
https://www.biblestudytools.com/comment ... 22-18.html
Although the warning against adding or removing apply specifically to this book, by both implication and experience, the canon of Scripture is complete with the book of Revelation:
Chafer well concludes: “The formal closing of the New Testament canon is at least intimated in Revelation Rev. 22:18+. The dissimilarity in the manner in which the two Testaments end is significant. All the unfulfilled expectation of the Old Testament is articulate as that testament closes and the last verse gives assurance of the coming of another prophet. But no continued revelation is impending as the New Testament is terminated: rather the announcement is made that the Lord Himself will soon return and the natural conclusion is that there would be no further voice speaking from heaven before the trumpet heralds the second advent of Christ. Of no small moment is the fact that since the canon of the Bible was divinely closed no attempts have been made to add to it.”5

These two warnings against additions and subtractions in their context are concerned specifically with the book of Revelation, and the primary emphasis is not on the Bible as a whole. However, since the book of Revelation is the final revelation of God’s Word, the principle behind the warning can be extended to the Bible as a whole, for the Bible as a whole is complete only with the book of Revelation.6
What I have grown up hearing, and what i believe, is very much in agreement with the above explanation.
Within Anabaptism though there are doctrines & rules that cannot be found in Scripture- I am not sure what the difference is- many people I have talked to left their particular Anabaptist sect saying they have unscriptural 'extra' rules too-
However there were both 'oral' and 'written' traditions (2 Thessalonians 2:15) so what was handed down by the Apostles and what the Holy Spirit guided to 'do' was not always written down, I mean people in their relationship with the Lord & the Church was a 'living' not just a 'written' relationship and life. Jesus did things outside of the 'written' Law Himself at times and was vehemently attacked for it- He didn't always follow the letter of the law-

But that passage you mention, from what I have read, does apply to Revelations- after the Reformation there were several books taken out of the Old Testament by the Reformers/Protestants- who had their own criteria I suppose-
What doctrines do the Anabaptists have that are not found in scripture? Name at least one! We have rules or standards that we use among ourselves but have never insisted that those rules or standards have anything to do with salvation. We accept the entire Bible as being the word of God. If there are oral traditions where are those traditions validated? What books did the Anabaptists remove from the Bible? Are you sure you are not making some unjustified and unsubstantiated claims?
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MaxPC
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Re: Fasting prior to Baptism

Post by MaxPC »

Sudsy wrote:So, it would appear that fastings that are not involving food cannot be supported by scripture to other 'passions'. Amazing what people will come up with to avoid going without food. :roll: :P
:laugh
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Sudsy
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Re: Fasting prior to Baptism

Post by Sudsy »

Valerie wrote:
Sudsy wrote:So, it would appear that fastings that are not involving food cannot be supported by scripture to other 'passions'. Amazing what people will come up with to avoid going without food. :roll: :P
That doesn't exclude people from avoiding food- it just means there may be other distractions that occupy one's attention and time that would get in the way of really seeking God- when we are doing so in a deeper way, or in need, etc-

Some people have no problem giving up food-
I do! :oops: But there would be other areas that I devote to much time & energy too- for example discussion forums-
(I noticed during Lent, some give up social media 'too' not instead of particular food)

Anyways- whatever the Lord leads one to do- (I should note that during times of fasting the expectation is to give alms from the money one saves from spending on food- give to the poor)
Do you think fasting has any benefits spiritually if an increase in prayer does not accompany it ?

Also, I think food fasting is unique as during this time without food we go through a continued harassment from our bodies to get fed. Other areas can be a struggle in my mind but I can more easily replace what I am giving up with other things I enjoy if I'm not spending this time in prayer.

Regarding our topic - 'fasting prior to baptism', what do you think this fasting as set down in the Didache and shown in the OP, accomplishes in relation to baptism ? Is the 'depth' of grace experienced by the baptized greater than it would be if they did not fast. Also, my guess is that early church fasting and it's reference in the Didache was always about food.
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Josh
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Re: Fasting prior to Baptism

Post by Josh »

Fasting from social media certainly isn’t found in the Bible.
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