Fasting prior to Baptism

General Christian Theology
Sudsy
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Re: Fasting prior to Baptism

Post by Sudsy »

Valerie wrote:
Hats Off wrote:Provide some logic as to how infants can fast before baptism.
Infants would not need to fast before being baptized, nor would children, they have not had a lifetime of sin & passions to overcome, no need to empty themselves to receive-
From a 'logical' standpoint, much of the faith is mystery that we accept as mystery- much of the faith is not 'logical'.

I do know that typically in the ancient churches of 'today' that one fasts before receiving the eucharist or communion- whichever one calls it in their denomination-
I know that some of my Anabaptist friends have said they traditionally fast before their Christmas meal? (or was it Thanksgiving, am trying to recall from a discussion forum I was on, of course they were Amish)
The underlined I don't understand when on the day of Pentecost 3,000 souls were saved and baptised. Obviously these folks had years of sinning in them. And the same for others who were baptised immediately on their confession of faith. Seems to me, man thought he could 'one up' on the original pattern and this 'one uping' continued beyond what scriptures tell us to practise. How do we know the earliest church outside of what we read in the NT were doing things that were God approved and not just God tolerated ?
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Valerie
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Re: Fasting prior to Baptism

Post by Valerie »

Sudsy wrote:
Valerie wrote:
Hats Off wrote:Provide some logic as to how infants can fast before baptism.
Infants would not need to fast before being baptized, nor would children, they have not had a lifetime of sin & passions to overcome, no need to empty themselves to receive-
From a 'logical' standpoint, much of the faith is mystery that we accept as mystery- much of the faith is not 'logical'.

I do know that typically in the ancient churches of 'today' that one fasts before receiving the eucharist or communion- whichever one calls it in their denomination-
I know that some of my Anabaptist friends have said they traditionally fast before their Christmas meal? (or was it Thanksgiving, am trying to recall from a discussion forum I was on, of course they were Amish)
The underlined I don't understand when on the day of Pentecost 3,000 souls were saved and baptised. Obviously these folks had years of sinning in them. And the same or others who were baptised immediately on their confession of faith. Seems to me, man thought he could 'one up' on the original pattern and this 'one uping' continued beyond what scriptures tell us to practise. How do we know the earliest church outside of what we read in the NT were doing things that were God approved and not just God tolerated ?
As you read the book of Acts, there is no 'exact' way of anything that was done in the very earliest days of the newborn church- some received the baptism of the Holy Spirit prior to their baptism (evidenced by receiving the gift of tongues) and some received the Holy Spirit afterwards- indeed as you read the infancy of the church it is quite literally difficult to find one set pattern for doing anything- the only consistent thing was inconsistency- but- Christ said He would build His Church and He did- and we still are all trying to fit it into the infancy mold which, don't we all find this difficult?
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Hats Off
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Re: Fasting prior to Baptism

Post by Hats Off »

Valerie wrote:
As you read the book of Acts, there is no 'exact' way of anything that was done in the very earliest days of the newborn church- some received the baptism of the Holy Spirit prior to their baptism (evidenced by receiving the gift of tongues) and some received the Holy Spirit afterwards- indeed as you read the infancy of the church it is quite literally difficult to find one set pattern for doing anything- the only consistent thing was inconsistency- but- Christ said He would build His Church and He did- and we still are all trying to fit it into the infancy mold which, don't we all find this difficult?
I think some us don't find it difficult at all to understand the words of Jesus, but we do all fail in living up to them. I think we are trying to fit our practices to the teachings of Jesus, not into an infancy mold.
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Valerie
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Re: Fasting prior to Baptism

Post by Valerie »

Hats Off wrote:
Valerie wrote:
As you read the book of Acts, there is no 'exact' way of anything that was done in the very earliest days of the newborn church- some received the baptism of the Holy Spirit prior to their baptism (evidenced by receiving the gift of tongues) and some received the Holy Spirit afterwards- indeed as you read the infancy of the church it is quite literally difficult to find one set pattern for doing anything- the only consistent thing was inconsistency- but- Christ said He would build His Church and He did- and we still are all trying to fit it into the infancy mold which, don't we all find this difficult?
I think some us don't find it difficult at all to understand the words of Jesus, but we do all fail in living up to them. I think we are trying to fit our practices to the teachings of Jesus, not into an infancy mold.
What I was referring to was the book of Acts- when you go back & read through it, the Holy Spirit was not doing things 'one way' upon the Jews & the Gentiles conversions- that is what I meant- the Church was in it's infancy and it there were a variety of ways people were getting converted, receiving the Holy Spirit, and things like that- Jesus didn't say to 'pour' water on one's head for baptism, did He? See it is easy to say it is clear- but- then we have a variety of understandings.
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silentreader
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Re: Fasting prior to Baptism

Post by silentreader »

Valerie wrote:
Hats Off wrote:Provide some logic as to how infants can fast before baptism.
Infants would not need to fast before being baptized, nor would children, they have not had a lifetime of sin & passions to overcome, no need to empty themselves to receive-
From a 'logical' standpoint, much of the faith is mystery that we accept as mystery- much of the faith is not 'logical'.

I do know that typically in the ancient churches of 'today' that one fasts before receiving the eucharist or communion- whichever one calls it in their denomination-
I know that some of my Anabaptist friends have said they traditionally fast before their Christmas meal? (or was it Thanksgiving, am trying to recall from a discussion forum I was on, of course they were Amish)
Good Friday, I know, in some cases, although more and more, self-gratification is over-powering that practice.
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silentreader
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Re: Fasting prior to Baptism

Post by silentreader »

Valerie wrote:
Hats Off wrote:
Valerie wrote:
As you read the book of Acts, there is no 'exact' way of anything that was done in the very earliest days of the newborn church- some received the baptism of the Holy Spirit prior to their baptism (evidenced by receiving the gift of tongues) and some received the Holy Spirit afterwards- indeed as you read the infancy of the church it is quite literally difficult to find one set pattern for doing anything- the only consistent thing was inconsistency- but- Christ said He would build His Church and He did- and we still are all trying to fit it into the infancy mold which, don't we all find this difficult?
I think some us don't find it difficult at all to understand the words of Jesus, but we do all fail in living up to them. I think we are trying to fit our practices to the teachings of Jesus, not into an infancy mold.
What I was referring to was the book of Acts- when you go back & read through it, the Holy Spirit was not doing things 'one way' upon the Jews & the Gentiles conversions- that is what I meant- the Church was in it's infancy and it there were a variety of ways people were getting converted, receiving the Holy Spirit, and things like that- Jesus didn't say to 'pour' water on one's head for baptism, did He? See it is easy to say it is clear- but- then we have a variety of understandings.
There was a variety of ways that God/the Holy Spirit worked, but always within certain parameters.
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Valerie
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Re: Fasting prior to Baptism

Post by Valerie »

silentreader wrote:
Valerie wrote:
Hats Off wrote:Provide some logic as to how infants can fast before baptism.
Infants would not need to fast before being baptized, nor would children, they have not had a lifetime of sin & passions to overcome, no need to empty themselves to receive-
From a 'logical' standpoint, much of the faith is mystery that we accept as mystery- much of the faith is not 'logical'.

I do know that typically in the ancient churches of 'today' that one fasts before receiving the eucharist or communion- whichever one calls it in their denomination-
I know that some of my Anabaptist friends have said they traditionally fast before their Christmas meal? (or was it Thanksgiving, am trying to recall from a discussion forum I was on, of course they were Amish)
Good Friday, I know, in some cases, although more and more, self-gratification is over-powering that practice.
I really believe it was Christmas that others had shared about in their Amish style Christmas celebration- fasting until the main meal- I know it wasn't Good Friday that these had talked about- but self-gratification is probably what I struggle with the most when trying to fast. It's very difficult for me :oops:
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silentreader
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Re: Fasting prior to Baptism

Post by silentreader »

Valerie wrote:
silentreader wrote:
Valerie wrote:
Infants would not need to fast before being baptized, nor would children, they have not had a lifetime of sin & passions to overcome, no need to empty themselves to receive-
From a 'logical' standpoint, much of the faith is mystery that we accept as mystery- much of the faith is not 'logical'.

I do know that typically in the ancient churches of 'today' that one fasts before receiving the eucharist or communion- whichever one calls it in their denomination-
I know that some of my Anabaptist friends have said they traditionally fast before their Christmas meal? (or was it Thanksgiving, am trying to recall from a discussion forum I was on, of course they were Amish)
Good Friday, I know, in some cases, although more and more, self-gratification is over-powering that practice.
I really believe it was Christmas that others had shared about in their Amish style Christmas celebration- fasting until the main meal- I know it wasn't Good Friday that these had talked about- but self-gratification is probably what I struggle with the most when trying to fast. It's very difficult for me :oops:
I guess I'm not at all familiar with Amish practice. But locally some Mennonites have in the past, and a very few, perhaps mainly individuals and individual families, fast in at least some degree on Good Friday.
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Sudsy
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Re: Fasting prior to Baptism

Post by Sudsy »

Valerie wrote: As you read the book of Acts, there is no 'exact' way of anything that was done in the very earliest days of the newborn church- some received the baptism of the Holy Spirit prior to their baptism (evidenced by receiving the gift of tongues) and some received the Holy Spirit afterwards- indeed as you read the infancy of the church it is quite literally difficult to find one set pattern for doing anything- the only consistent thing was inconsistency- but- Christ said He would build His Church and He did- and we still are all trying to fit it into the infancy mold which, don't we all find this difficult?
I agree that there were some variations but there also appears to be some consistent practises. I would think that if fasting was important prior to water baptism and the concept of 'being emptied' was required before being baptised so one could receive the 'grace' (regeneration), as some believe, then it would appear as such in the NT. I understand the idea for an object to be filled with something it must first be emptied of anything else in it, yet the receiving of the Holy Spirit in whatever form according to the NT is to be a child of God and ask.

So, are you thinking that the more mature form of Christianity occurred outside of the NT instructions in books like the Didache where a 'more developed' form of Christian practise was detailed ? If so, at what point is Christian practise a settled guide for obedience ? Isn't part of our disunity today the result of our disagreements on what practise today is applicable to us even when looking at scripture alone ? And regarding the oral, when did oral no longer become a settled oral ? Am I to trust that practises developed outside the NT teachings have the same authority and inerrant characteristics as the NT ? At what point did the Church go from 'infancy' to being mature and settled ?

Sorry, just a bunch of questions popping up in my tired brain. Any help giving me some clarity would be appreciated.
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Valerie
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Re: Fasting prior to Baptism

Post by Valerie »

Sudsy wrote:
Valerie wrote: As you read the book of Acts, there is no 'exact' way of anything that was done in the very earliest days of the newborn church- some received the baptism of the Holy Spirit prior to their baptism (evidenced by receiving the gift of tongues) and some received the Holy Spirit afterwards- indeed as you read the infancy of the church it is quite literally difficult to find one set pattern for doing anything- the only consistent thing was inconsistency- but- Christ said He would build His Church and He did- and we still are all trying to fit it into the infancy mold which, don't we all find this difficult?
I agree that there were some variations but there also appears to be some consistent practises. I would think that if fasting was important prior to water baptism and the concept of 'being emptied' was required before being baptised so one could receive the 'grace' (regeneration), as some believe, then it would appear as such in the NT. I understand the idea for an object to be filled with something it must first be emptied of anything else in it, yet the receiving of the Holy Spirit in whatever form according to the NT is to be a child of God and ask.

So, are you thinking that the more mature form of Christianity occurred outside of the NT instructions in books like the Didache where a 'more developed' form of Christian practise was detailed ? If so, at what point is Christian practise a settled guide for obedience ? Isn't part of our disunity today the result of our disagreements on what practise today is applicable to us even when looking at scripture alone ? And regarding the oral, when did oral no longer become a settled oral ? Am I to trust that practises developed outside the NT teachings have the same authority and inerrant characteristics as the NT ? At what point did the Church go from 'infancy' to being mature and settled ?

Sorry, just a bunch of questions popping up in my tired brain. Any help giving me some clarity would be appreciated.
Well we get tired 'discussing' it- imagine being the Apostles in primitive Christianity, taking the Gospel to the Gentiles! Starting Churches in, as the NT teach, every city!!
Certainly I cannot begin to answer all your questions, because so much of it was oral-when a big decision had to be made, apparently by a council (Acts 15) where the elders would come together to discuss & pray and seek the guidance of the Holy Spirit- do you think that these that were left with the enormous task to take Christianity to the Gentile/heathen/pagan world, was concerning themselves with writing every step down in instruction manual form?

Think about this:
John 21:25
“And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.”

Were they anticipating a time when Christendom would be so suspect of the evolution of the Church that it would need to read back to step by step instructions on all things Church service & practice?
I am pretty sure, that the early Church didn't have worship bands- but there have been archological discoveries that give windows into the artifacts used in the earliest days of the NT Churches- and the catachombs- writings like the Didache- there were liturgies like the Apostle James (first Bishop of the Church in Jerusalem) that is still used to this day in many churches-
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