Fasting prior to Baptism

General Christian Theology
Valerie
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Re: Fasting prior to Baptism

Post by Valerie »

Hats Off wrote:
Valerie wrote:
Sudsy wrote:
I found this very interesting - http://www.themichigancatholic.org/2016 ... he-desert/
I have learned to understand and appreciate more of the ancient faiths purpose & reasons for doing such things- although- when the ancient faith's practice 40 days of fasting corporately (done 40 years prior to the Nativity, and 40 days prior to Pascha (Easter) it is not going 40 days without food, but it is a strict fast of abstaining from a lot of things and I tell you what- it is not easy! It makes you realize because Jesus went without food, how hard that would be!
How was it possible to fast 40 years before the birth of the Messiah when no one knew when that would be? Was it an accidental fast? Where in the NT do we read about this fast? How was it possible to fast 40 days before the crucifixion and resurrection when no living person knew the time that this was to happen? Was this an accidental fast? Where in the NT do we read about this fast?
Not 40 years, Hats Off- 40 days the Church fasts before the 'celebration' of the first Advent-
Christmas- it is in preparation for the Holy Day of observance of the birth of our Savior-
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Valerie
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Re: Fasting prior to Baptism

Post by Valerie »

ken_sylvania wrote:Zwingli, Luther and the other Protestant reformers couldn't teach the full Bible truth about baptism because they were afraid to let go of infant baptism.
They have nothing to fear now- I have read the writings of for example the Presbyterian Church's reasons for infant baptism, they are closer to the writings of the early church writers- but certainly there has been no reason to 'fear' for 500 years anyone could recant if they desired now that the church has thousands of beliefs and practices.
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MaxPC
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Re: Fasting prior to Baptism

Post by MaxPC »

ohio jones wrote:
MaxPC wrote:
Valerie wrote:Do you have any idea why Jesus fasted for 40 days?
To prepare for His ministry. Now what kind of fast was it? Water alone? Small amounts of food and water after sundown?
Luke 4:2 is pretty clear that it wasn't small amounts of food after sundown.
Thanks, OJ. I agree and being the Son of God both fully divine as well as fully human, it would seem to me that the Savior who conquered death could also survive without food.
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ohio jones
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Re: Fasting prior to Baptism

Post by ohio jones »

Valerie wrote:
ken_sylvania wrote:Zwingli, Luther and the other Protestant reformers couldn't teach the full Bible truth about baptism because they were afraid to let go of infant baptism.
They have nothing to fear now- I have read the writings of for example the Presbyterian Church's reasons for infant baptism, they are closer to the writings of the early church writers- but certainly there has been no reason to 'fear' for 500 years anyone could recant if they desired now that the church has thousands of beliefs and practices.
As usual, never missing an opportunity to bemoan the multiple articulations of the Church. :) Maybe this will clarify what Ken was saying:
Harold S. Bender wrote:Anabaptism is the culmination of the Reformation, the fulfillment of the original vision of Luther and Zwingli, and thus makes it a consistent evangelical Protestantism seeking to recreate without compromise the original New Testament church, the vision of Christ and the apostles.
Zwingli wrote:Although I know, as the Fathers show, that infants have been baptised occasionally from the earliest times, still it was not so universal a custom as it is now, but the common practice was as soon as they arrived at the age of reason to form them into classes for instruction in the Word of Salvation (hence they were called catechumens, i. e., persons under instruction). And after a firm faith had been implanted in their hearts and they had confessed the same with their mouth, then they were baptised.
Balthasar Hubmaier wrote:In 1523, on Philip and James’ Day [Friday, May 1], I have with you [Zwingli] conferred in Graben Street upon the Scriptures relating to Baptism; then and there you said I was right in saying that children should not be baptised before they were instructed in the faith; ... So you have also confessed in your book upon the unruly spirits, that those who baptised infants could quote no clear word in Scripture ordering them to baptise them.
Zwingli at one point knew that infant baptism wasn't right, but persisted in the practice because of political pressure. The desire to accommodate the city council won out over his conscience and the claims of Hubmaier and Grebel. He compromised and hardened his heart against the truth.

He was somewhat more courageous on the subject of fasting. The Affair of the Sausages, in which Zwingli and others violated the Lenten fast by eating smoked sausage, is considered the beginning of the Swiss Reformation.
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Valerie
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Re: Fasting prior to Baptism

Post by Valerie »

ohio jones wrote:
Valerie wrote:
ken_sylvania wrote:Zwingli, Luther and the other Protestant reformers couldn't teach the full Bible truth about baptism because they were afraid to let go of infant baptism.
They have nothing to fear now- I have read the writings of for example the Presbyterian Church's reasons for infant baptism, they are closer to the writings of the early church writers- but certainly there has been no reason to 'fear' for 500 years anyone could recant if they desired now that the church has thousands of beliefs and practices.
As usual, never missing an opportunity to bemoan the multiple articulations of the Church. :) Maybe this will clarify what Ken was saying:
Harold S. Bender wrote:Anabaptism is the culmination of the Reformation, the fulfillment of the original vision of Luther and Zwingli, and thus makes it a consistent evangelical Protestantism seeking to recreate without compromise the original New Testament church, the vision of Christ and the apostles.
Zwingli wrote:Although I know, as the Fathers show, that infants have been baptised occasionally from the earliest times, still it was not so universal a custom as it is now, but the common practice was as soon as they arrived at the age of reason to form them into classes for instruction in the Word of Salvation (hence they were called catechumens, i. e., persons under instruction). And after a firm faith had been implanted in their hearts and they had confessed the same with their mouth, then they were baptised.
Balthasar Hubmaier wrote:In 1523, on Philip and James’ Day [Friday, May 1], I have with you [Zwingli] conferred in Graben Street upon the Scriptures relating to Baptism; then and there you said I was right in saying that children should not be baptised before they were instructed in the faith; ... So you have also confessed in your book upon the unruly spirits, that those who baptised infants could quote no clear word in Scripture ordering them to baptise them.
Zwingli at one point knew that infant baptism wasn't right, but persisted in the practice because of political pressure. The desire to accommodate the city council won out over his conscience and the claims of Hubmaier and Grebel. He compromised and hardened his heart against the truth.

He was somewhat more courageous on the subject of fasting. The Affair of the Sausages, in which Zwingli and others violated the Lenten fast by eating smoked sausage, is considered the beginning of the Swiss Reformation.
I don't know how this topic went from fasting before Baptism, to infant baptism (I will have to go back through it) however I realize the west was a pretty mixed bag of understandings all over the place-
Boot said that infant baptism was in the church Canons- I have no idea what made that so- I have only read statements read by early Church writers, and a couple of those statements were 'that the Apostles taught it'. So if that is not the case, I am curious how it became so widespread (worldwide).

Perhaps we can switch this back to fasting prior to Baptism, which I don't think the Anabaptists take issue with-
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silentreader
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Re: Fasting prior to Baptism

Post by silentreader »

Valerie wrote:
ohio jones wrote:
Valerie wrote: They have nothing to fear now- I have read the writings of for example the Presbyterian Church's reasons for infant baptism, they are closer to the writings of the early church writers- but certainly there has been no reason to 'fear' for 500 years anyone could recant if they desired now that the church has thousands of beliefs and practices.
As usual, never missing an opportunity to bemoan the multiple articulations of the Church. :) Maybe this will clarify what Ken was saying:
Harold S. Bender wrote:Anabaptism is the culmination of the Reformation, the fulfillment of the original vision of Luther and Zwingli, and thus makes it a consistent evangelical Protestantism seeking to recreate without compromise the original New Testament church, the vision of Christ and the apostles.
Zwingli wrote:Although I know, as the Fathers show, that infants have been baptised occasionally from the earliest times, still it was not so universal a custom as it is now, but the common practice was as soon as they arrived at the age of reason to form them into classes for instruction in the Word of Salvation (hence they were called catechumens, i. e., persons under instruction). And after a firm faith had been implanted in their hearts and they had confessed the same with their mouth, then they were baptised.
Balthasar Hubmaier wrote:In 1523, on Philip and James’ Day [Friday, May 1], I have with you [Zwingli] conferred in Graben Street upon the Scriptures relating to Baptism; then and there you said I was right in saying that children should not be baptised before they were instructed in the faith; ... So you have also confessed in your book upon the unruly spirits, that those who baptised infants could quote no clear word in Scripture ordering them to baptise them.
Zwingli at one point knew that infant baptism wasn't right, but persisted in the practice because of political pressure. The desire to accommodate the city council won out over his conscience and the claims of Hubmaier and Grebel. He compromised and hardened his heart against the truth.

He was somewhat more courageous on the subject of fasting. The Affair of the Sausages, in which Zwingli and others violated the Lenten fast by eating smoked sausage, is considered the beginning of the Swiss Reformation.
I don't know how this topic went from fasting before Baptism, to infant baptism (I will have to go back through it) however I realize the west was a pretty mixed bag of understandings all over the place-
Boot said that infant baptism was in the church Canons- I have no idea what made that so- I have only read statements read by early Church writers, and a couple of those statements were 'that the Apostles taught it'. So if that is not the case, I am curious how it became so widespread (worldwide).

Perhaps we can switch this back to fasting prior to Baptism, which I don't think the Anabaptists take issue with-
Providing it's not forced on infants.
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Sudsy
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Re: Fasting prior to Baptism

Post by Sudsy »

[quote="Valerie"]Sudsy I think that you would benefit from this book by David Bercot:

https://www.scrollpublishing.com/store/ ... onary.html

Thanks Valerie, I just purchased a Kindle copy. Will read after I finish 'God At War' by Greg Boyd.

And yes, can we focus more on the fasting prior to whatever water baptism one practises. Do any Anabaptist groups have some kind of fasting practise required for a person to be baptised ? I have not heard of any in Evangelicals or other Protestant churches. When did this practise disappear, I wonder and why ?
Last edited by Sudsy on Thu Oct 19, 2017 5:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Hats Off
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Re: Fasting prior to Baptism

Post by Hats Off »

Provide some logic as to how infants can fast before baptism.
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Valerie
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Re: Fasting prior to Baptism

Post by Valerie »

Hats Off wrote:Provide some logic as to how infants can fast before baptism.
Infants would not need to fast before being baptized, nor would children, they have not had a lifetime of sin & passions to overcome, no need to empty themselves to receive-
From a 'logical' standpoint, much of the faith is mystery that we accept as mystery- much of the faith is not 'logical'.

I do know that typically in the ancient churches of 'today' that one fasts before receiving the eucharist or communion- whichever one calls it in their denomination-
I know that some of my Anabaptist friends have said they traditionally fast before their Christmas meal? (or was it Thanksgiving, am trying to recall from a discussion forum I was on, of course they were Amish)
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Valerie
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Re: Fasting prior to Baptism

Post by Valerie »

Sudsy wrote:
Valerie wrote:Sudsy I think that you would benefit from this book by David Bercot:

https://www.scrollpublishing.com/store/ ... onary.html

Thanks Valerie, I just purchased a Kindle copy. Will read after I finish 'God At War' by Greg Boyd.

And yes, can we focus more on the fasting prior to whatever water baptism one practises. Do any Anabaptist groups have some kind of fasting practise required for a person to be baptised ? I have not heard of any in Evangelicals or other Protestant churches. When did this practise disappear, I wonder and why ?
Yikes, you just added 704 pages to your kindle!

You ask a good question-
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