Fasting prior to Baptism

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ken_sylvania
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Re: Fasting prior to Baptism

Post by ken_sylvania »

Valerie wrote:Perhaps the Church at that time the Didache was written was recognizing the need to fast prior to Chrismation, where they are anointed with oil to receive the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit was deposited into the Church to guide Her, not a text book and again you are assuming they were writing everything down step by step. This assumption is what has led to myriads of understandings, practices, ordinances etc, based on Sola Scriptura but the Scripture never taught Sola Scriptura- they had the Living Word, and Holy Spirit, guiding them- to assume fasting prior to baptism is not a 'good' thing is to not really understand fasting it seems. If our Lord thought it necessary to fast 40 days, I'm not sure why we criticize it. Where was it 'written' for Him to do this? But again, He is the one who pointed out his disciples were unable to heal the young man because of their 1) unbelief & 2) "this kind" cannot come out but by prayer & fasting. He understands fasting, more than we do.
FWIW, Jesus does not seem to fasted prior to his baptism. The 40 day fast you reference was after his baptism.

Also, according to the Gospels, the Holy Spirit descended upon Jesus before the 40 day period you reference. Matthew, Mark, and Luke all mention that the Spirit led Jesus into the wilderness. Do we really think the purpose of the fast was to empty Jesus of his self-will and make room for an infilling of the Spirit? Seems if that was the case he would have fasted prior to his baptism rather than after.
Matthew and Luke both state that the purpose was to be tempted of the devil, with the fasting mentioned more like an after-thought (possibly to better explain the temptation to turn stones into bread). Mark doesn't even mention the fast. To teach that this experience somehow suggests that Christians should fast for 40 days (with the focus on fasting) twists the real focus of the temptation period as recorded in the Gospels.
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Sudsy
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Re: Fasting prior to Baptism

Post by Sudsy »

Valerie wrote: Perhaps the Church at that time the Didache was written was recognizing the need to fast prior to Chrismation, where they are anointed with oil to receive the Holy Spirit.

Again, something not found in NT scripture - Chrismation. In Acts there was no mention of being anointed with oil to receive the Holy Spirit but it was by the laying on of hands. Someone, I guess, thought up a new way. Or, as I think you believe, the Holy Spirit lead them to make that change, right ? Seems growth goes from something very straight forward and simple to very involved. From Wikipedia-
Chrism consists of a "mixture of forty sweet-smelling substances and pure olive oil"[2] sanctified by a bishop with some older chrism added in,[3] in the belief that some trace of the initial chrism sanctified by the Apostles remains therein.


The Holy Spirit was deposited into the Church to guide Her, not a text book and again you are assuming they were writing everything down step by step. This assumption is what has led to myriads of understandings, practices, ordinances etc, based on Sola Scriptura but the Scripture never taught Sola Scriptura- they had the Living Word, and Holy Spirit, guiding them- to assume fasting prior to baptism is not a 'good' thing is to not really understand fasting it seems.

So, one must decide to put their faith in 'one true church', through the Holy Spirit, not erring throughout history in adding to and taking away from Christian practise in the NT writings and also believe the same Holy Spirit is today still leading this 'one true church', to continue to add and change practises as the Spirit leads, right ? You are free to do that if that is where you care to use as the source of your belief and practise but are not getting many, if any, followers here.

I am not assuming that "fasting prior to baptism is not a 'good' thing", just pointing out that it is one of those areas that most believers have not practised nor is it a NT written practise. As long as you are putting your faith in the addition of oral tradition being passed down in a protected way by any one group, with all it's variations from NT scripture, you will be getting push back here. Most of us are not willing to accept that Christian practise and forms of worship have been and are continuing to be perfectly maintained by a 'one true church'.

If our Lord thought it necessary to fast 40 days, I'm not sure why we criticize it. Where was it 'written' for Him to do this? But again, He is the one who pointed out his disciples were unable to heal the young man because of their 1) unbelief & 2) "this kind" cannot come out but by prayer & fasting. He understands fasting, more than we do.

I'll pass on this as Ken makes some good points.

Valerie, I hope your faith journey in the EO beliefs do enrich your walk with God but as long as most of us here try to base our beliefs and practises on NT scripture as we feel the Holy Spirit leads us (and obviously He is not leading us all in different directions), sources outside the NT scripture will be suspect if they don't have NT backing as discerned by the brotherhood.

Also Anabaptists had their own definition regarding 'sola scriptura' and to them it meant that every single individual Christian could read and understand the Bible for themselves. Strangely enough, to me, it became more of a brotherhood agreement to what the scriptures meant and there have been many splits regarding practise (individualism by group) within Anabaptism.
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ohio jones
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Re: Fasting prior to Baptism

Post by ohio jones »

Valerie wrote:These would be Old Testament books- that the Protestants took out-
Don't blame everything on the Protestants- whose beginnings we celebrate today- the deuterocanonical books are not in the Hebrew Bible, either-
I am not sure what the Mennonites use-
I wonder where you could ask to find out? :idea:
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Valerie
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Re: Fasting prior to Baptism

Post by Valerie »

ken_sylvania wrote:
Valerie wrote:Perhaps the Church at that time the Didache was written was recognizing the need to fast prior to Chrismation, where they are anointed with oil to receive the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit was deposited into the Church to guide Her, not a text book and again you are assuming they were writing everything down step by step. This assumption is what has led to myriads of understandings, practices, ordinances etc, based on Sola Scriptura but the Scripture never taught Sola Scriptura- they had the Living Word, and Holy Spirit, guiding them- to assume fasting prior to baptism is not a 'good' thing is to not really understand fasting it seems. If our Lord thought it necessary to fast 40 days, I'm not sure why we criticize it. Where was it 'written' for Him to do this? But again, He is the one who pointed out his disciples were unable to heal the young man because of their 1) unbelief & 2) "this kind" cannot come out but by prayer & fasting. He understands fasting, more than we do.
FWIW, Jesus does not seem to fasted prior to his baptism. The 40 day fast you reference was after his baptism.

Yes I realize that- Jesus was baptized for a different reason, than everyone else-
What purpose was it, and what purpose was His fasting for 40 days?


Also, according to the Gospels, the Holy Spirit descended upon Jesus before the 40 day period you reference. Matthew, Mark, and Luke all mention that the Spirit led Jesus into the wilderness. Do we really think the purpose of the fast was to empty Jesus of his self-will and make room for an infilling of the Spirit? Seems if that was the case he would have fasted prior to his baptism rather than after.
Matthew and Luke both state that the purpose was to be tempted of the devil, with the fasting mentioned more like an after-thought (possibly to better explain the temptation to turn stones into bread). Mark doesn't even mention the fast. To teach that this experience somehow suggests that Christians should fast for 40 days (with the focus on fasting) twists the real focus of the temptation period as recorded in the Gospels.
We are tempted by the devil as well- if we think that Jesus fasted to be tempted I think that there is something 'to' the fast -
No one HAS to fast, it is voluntary- but it is encouraged in the NT so I wouldn't criticize anyone for doing so- you remember, these decisions were a 'brotherhood' too- every denomination has their own particular traditions- for their own reasons they start- and if they seem futile, they probably drop them-
I think that Amish are probably more accustomed to fasting than other Anabaptist groups? at least I've read/heard about them doing so-
It seems like it is something that perplexes most Christian groups- our Pentecostal church had fasting periods 'together' for prayer & fasting- it's not uncommon.
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Valerie
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Re: Fasting prior to Baptism

Post by Valerie »

ohio jones wrote:
Valerie wrote:These would be Old Testament books- that the Protestants took out-
Don't blame everything on the Protestants- whose beginnings we celebrate today- the deuterocanonical books are not in the Hebrew Bible, either-
I am not sure what the Mennonites use-
I wonder where you could ask to find out? :idea:
Right, I learned the history of the Hebrew Bible, which made me more comfortable with the Septuagint-
What do Mennonites use?
I know that one criticism MAP Ministry had of the founders former Amish, was a wedding practice for an Amish wedding-- and apparently it came from the book of Tobit- I don't know which version Amish use, but the Amish author of the Vendor seemed to think they should use the OT with all the books that were taken out at the time of the Reformation-
Which do Mennonites use? The Hebrew or Greek OT (Septuagint)?
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Valerie
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Re: Fasting prior to Baptism

Post by Valerie »

Sudsy wrote:
Valerie wrote: Perhaps the Church at that time the Didache was written was recognizing the need to fast prior to Chrismation, where they are anointed with oil to receive the Holy Spirit.

Again, something not found in NT scripture - Chrismation. In Acts there was no mention of being anointed with oil to receive the Holy Spirit but it was by the laying on of hands. Someone, I guess, thought up a new way. Or, as I think you believe, the Holy Spirit lead them to make that change, right ? Seems growth goes from something very straight forward and simple to very involved. From Wikipedia-
Chrism consists of a "mixture of forty sweet-smelling substances and pure olive oil"[2] sanctified by a bishop with some older chrism added in,[3] in the belief that some trace of the initial chrism sanctified by the Apostles remains therein.


The Holy Spirit was deposited into the Church to guide Her, not a text book and again you are assuming they were writing everything down step by step. This assumption is what has led to myriads of understandings, practices, ordinances etc, based on Sola Scriptura but the Scripture never taught Sola Scriptura- they had the Living Word, and Holy Spirit, guiding them- to assume fasting prior to baptism is not a 'good' thing is to not really understand fasting it seems.

So, one must decide to put their faith in 'one true church', through the Holy Spirit, not erring throughout history in adding to and taking away from Christian practise in the NT writings and also believe the same Holy Spirit is today still leading this 'one true church', to continue to add and change practises as the Spirit leads, right ? You are free to do that if that is where you care to use as the source of your belief and practise but are not getting many, if any, followers here.

I am not assuming that "fasting prior to baptism is not a 'good' thing", just pointing out that it is one of those areas that most believers have not practised nor is it a NT written practise. As long as you are putting your faith in the addition of oral tradition being passed down in a protected way by any one group, with all it's variations from NT scripture, you will be getting push back here. Most of us are not willing to accept that Christian practise and forms of worship have been and are continuing to be perfectly maintained by a 'one true church'.

If our Lord thought it necessary to fast 40 days, I'm not sure why we criticize it. Where was it 'written' for Him to do this? But again, He is the one who pointed out his disciples were unable to heal the young man because of their 1) unbelief & 2) "this kind" cannot come out but by prayer & fasting. He understands fasting, more than we do.

I'll pass on this as Ken makes some good points.

Valerie, I hope your faith journey in the EO beliefs do enrich your walk with God but as long as most of us here try to base our beliefs and practises on NT scripture as we feel the Holy Spirit leads us (and obviously He is not leading us all in different directions), sources outside the NT scripture will be suspect if they don't have NT backing as discerned by the brotherhood.

Also Anabaptists had their own definition regarding 'sola scriptura' and to them it meant that every single individual Christian could read and understand the Bible for themselves. Strangely enough, to me, it became more of a brotherhood agreement to what the scriptures meant and there have been many splits regarding practise (individualism by group) within Anabaptism.
Anointing with oil was already practiced in the Old Testament- & it is specifically mentioned to do when you bring a sick one to the elders of the Church in James- if they didn't 'mention' it when they were laying hands on people to receive the Holy Spirit, it may have just not been mentioned, that doesn't mean it wasn't done, using oil was a common practice among the Jews already-

Not ALL Anabaptists believe in reading the Bible for themselves to interpret Sudsy- I know that is one of the complaints among former Amish, they were not to interpret for themselves- by reading on their own, nor by reading in groups- many communities of OO Amish, getting together to read the Bible is forbidden- I have known enough of them former & present who have shared that with me. It is one reason, some leave- it's kind of like used to the Catholics were not supposed to read/interpret on their own too- because, as we can see, we have myriads of interpretations-
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Hats Off
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Re: Fasting prior to Baptism

Post by Hats Off »

We are strongly encouraged to read - to study - to question - and to learn from the Bible. But we read in English or German. Remember also that Map Ministries and The Vendor are former or renegade Amish and can't be expected to present a favourable picture of any customs or practices. These are not the people to learn from if you want to learn what plain Amish and Mennonites believe.
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Sudsy
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Re: Fasting prior to Baptism

Post by Sudsy »

Valerie wrote: Anointing with oil was already practiced in the Old Testament- & it is specifically mentioned to do when you bring a sick one to the elders of the Church in James- if they didn't 'mention' it when they were laying hands on people to receive the Holy Spirit, it may have just not been mentioned, that doesn't mean it wasn't done, using oil was a common practice among the Jews already-

Not ALL Anabaptists believe in reading the Bible for themselves to interpret Sudsy- I know that is one of the complaints among former Amish, they were not to interpret for themselves- by reading on their own, nor by reading in groups- many communities of OO Amish, getting together to read the Bible is forbidden- I have known enough of them former & present who have shared that with me. It is one reason, some leave- it's kind of like used to the Catholics were not supposed to read/interpret on their own too- because, as we can see, we have myriads of interpretations-
Thankyou for the input and I could go into more discussion about the oil and what the NT does not mention but I think I will bail out here and ask to close this thread. Someone else can start up another thread on fasting if they wish.

Would whoever has the means now close this thread. Thankyou.
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Valerie
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Re: Fasting prior to Baptism

Post by Valerie »

Hats Off wrote:We are strongly encouraged to read - to study - to question - and to learn from the Bible. But we read in English or German. Remember also that Map Ministries and The Vendor are former or renegade Amish and can't be expected to present a favourable picture of any customs or practices. These are not the people to learn from if you want to learn what plain Amish and Mennonites believe.
Do you know the author of the Vendor Hats Off? I think he is still Amish- the publication seems very OO to me- as well as the ads- I didn't get the impression he is renegade Amish- but there are many variations of Amish i realize-
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Re: Fasting prior to Baptism

Post by ohio jones »

Valerie wrote:Which do Mennonites use? The Hebrew or Greek OT (Septuagint)?
Most Mennonites use the English OT, followed in popularity by the Amharic OT and the French OT. In most cases it is translated from the Hebrew Masoretic text.
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I am a Christian and my name is Pilgram; I'm on a journey, but I'm not alone -- NewSong, slightly edited
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