Fasting prior to Baptism

General Christian Theology
Sudsy
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Re: Fasting prior to Baptism

Post by Sudsy »

Valerie wrote: Well we get tired 'discussing' it- imagine being the Apostles in primitive Christianity, taking the Gospel to the Gentiles! Starting Churches in, as the NT teach, every city!!

Yes, my tiredness is mainly due to just getting old. Retired and tired. :)

Certainly I cannot begin to answer all your questions, because so much of it was oral-when a big decision had to be made, apparently by a council (Acts 15) where the elders would come together to discuss & pray and seek the guidance of the Holy Spirit- do you think that these that were left with the enormous task to take Christianity to the Gentile/heathen/pagan world, was concerning themselves with writing every step down in instruction manual form?

Probably not but we also know that everyone and every group that seeks the guidance of the Holy Spirit ends up with being guided differently than the other group that does the same. Like having the faith that the scriptures are correct one must put their faith in oral traditions being handed down without error, right ?

John 21:25
“And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.”

I take this to be referring to various other miracles Jesus did but not any new truths. They were more of the same. Do you think what was written in scripture was lacking truths that could have been written down and we should know about ?

Were they anticipating a time when Christendom would be so suspect of the evolution of the Church that it would need to read back to step by step instructions on all things Church service & practice?

But the Holy Spirit knowing what would happen in the future, would He not want those things to be written down and lead them to do so or perhaps those things were not mandatory practises.

I am pretty sure, that the early Church didn't have worship bands- but there have been archological discoveries that give windows into the artifacts used in the earliest days of the NT Churches- and the catachombs- writings like the Didache- there were liturgies like the Apostle James (first Bishop of the Church in Jerusalem) that is still used to this day in many churches-

So, were these to be the practises for all time forward because this is how they were practised in that setting at that time ? Perhaps worship bands, altar calls, modern dress, modern praying, etc, etc, is also OK with God if our hearts are right in doing them unto the Lord.

I don't expect all my questions to be answered, I'm just sharing the questions and thoughts that come to mind as I ponder what you are saying. I appreciate your input.


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JimFoxvog
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Re: Fasting prior to Baptism

Post by JimFoxvog »

Hats Off wrote:
Valerie wrote:
Sudsy wrote:
I found this very interesting - http://www.themichigancatholic.org/2016 ... he-desert/
I have learned to understand and appreciate more of the ancient faiths purpose & reasons for doing such things- although- when the ancient faith's practice 40 days of fasting corporately (done 40 years prior to the Nativity, and 40 days prior to Pascha (Easter) it is not going 40 days without food, but it is a strict fast of abstaining from a lot of things and I tell you what- it is not easy! It makes you realize because Jesus went without food, how hard that would be!
How was it possible to fast 40 years before the birth of the Messiah when no one knew when that would be? Was it an accidental fast? Where in the NT do we read about this fast? How was it possible to fast 40 days before the crucifixion and resurrection when no living person knew the time that this was to happen? Was this an accidental fast? Where in the NT do we read about this fast?
I think the "40 years prior to the Nativity" means 40 days prior to the Christmas celebration. Certainly "40 days prior to Pascha" means a yearly fast before Resurrection Day. This is a reference to early church practice, not something in the NT. I think it is worthwhile looking at what the early church did; there may be practices we would find it helpful to emulate.
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MaxPC
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Re: Fasting prior to Baptism

Post by MaxPC »

ohio jones wrote: Maybe this will clarify what Ken was saying:
Harold S. Bender wrote:Anabaptism is the culmination of the Reformation, the fulfillment of the original vision of Luther and Zwingli, and thus makes it a consistent evangelical Protestantism seeking to recreate without compromise the original New Testament church, the vision of Christ and the apostles.
Zwingli wrote:Although I know, as the Fathers show, that infants have been baptised occasionally from the earliest times, still it was not so universal a custom as it is now, but the common practice was as soon as they arrived at the age of reason to form them into classes for instruction in the Word of Salvation (hence they were called catechumens, i. e., persons under instruction). And after a firm faith had been implanted in their hearts and they had confessed the same with their mouth, then they were baptised.
Balthasar Hubmaier wrote:In 1523, on Philip and James’ Day [Friday, May 1], I have with you [Zwingli] conferred in Graben Street upon the Scriptures relating to Baptism; then and there you said I was right in saying that children should not be baptised before they were instructed in the faith; ... So you have also confessed in your book upon the unruly spirits, that those who baptised infants could quote no clear word in Scripture ordering them to baptise them.
Zwingli at one point knew that infant baptism wasn't right, but persisted in the practice because of political pressure. The desire to accommodate the city council won out over his conscience and the claims of Hubmaier and Grebel. He compromised and hardened his heart against the truth.

He was somewhat more courageous on the subject of fasting. The Affair of the Sausages, in which Zwingli and others violated the Lenten fast by eating smoked sausage, is considered the beginning of the Swiss Reformation.
Zwingli was interesting. He clearly was a "man in process", IMO. Keeping in mind that none of us are who were once were in our teens, our youth, do you think that if he had had the chance to live longer that he would have recanted infant baptism altogether? It seems to me that he was headed in that direction.
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ohio jones
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Re: Fasting prior to Baptism

Post by ohio jones »

MaxPC wrote:Zwingli was interesting. He clearly was a "man in process", IMO. Keeping in mind that none of us are who were once were in our teens, our youth, do you think that if he had had the chance to live longer that he would have recanted infant baptism altogether? It seems to me that he was headed in that direction.
I suspect he was too stubborn and driven by political considerations for that to happen. Once he dug in his heels and supported the persecution, siding with the council against the Anabaptists, it would have been very difficult to reverse course on that issue.
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MaxPC
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Re: Fasting prior to Baptism

Post by MaxPC »

ohio jones wrote:
MaxPC wrote:Zwingli was interesting. He clearly was a "man in process", IMO. Keeping in mind that none of us are who were once were in our teens, our youth, do you think that if he had had the chance to live longer that he would have recanted infant baptism altogether? It seems to me that he was headed in that direction.
I suspect he was too stubborn and driven by political considerations for that to happen. Once he dug in his heels and supported the persecution, siding with the council against the Anabaptists, it would have been very difficult to reverse course on that issue.
Do you think that had he lived long enough, he would have repented his position?
I've seen more radical 180˚conversions than the one Zwingli needed.
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Max (Plain Catholic)
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Proverbs 18:2 A fool does not delight in understanding but only in revealing his own mind.
1 Corinthians 3:19 For the wisdom of this world is folly with God
ken_sylvania
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Re: Fasting prior to Baptism

Post by ken_sylvania »

MaxPC wrote:
ohio jones wrote:
MaxPC wrote:Zwingli was interesting. He clearly was a "man in process", IMO. Keeping in mind that none of us are who were once were in our teens, our youth, do you think that if he had had the chance to live longer that he would have recanted infant baptism altogether? It seems to me that he was headed in that direction.
I suspect he was too stubborn and driven by political considerations for that to happen. Once he dug in his heels and supported the persecution, siding with the council against the Anabaptists, it would have been very difficult to reverse course on that issue.
Do you think that had he lived long enough, he would have repented his position?
I've seen more radical 180˚conversions than the one Zwingli needed.
I don't think we have any reason to think that he would have, but neither can we positively rule it out.
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Valerie
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Re: Fasting prior to Baptism

Post by Valerie »

Sudsy wrote:
Valerie wrote:Sudsy I think that you would benefit from this book by David Bercot:

https://www.scrollpublishing.com/store/ ... onary.html

Thanks Valerie, I just purchased a Kindle copy. Will read after I finish 'God At War' by Greg Boyd.

And yes, can we focus more on the fasting prior to whatever water baptism one practises. Do any Anabaptist groups have some kind of fasting practise required for a person to be baptised ? I have not heard of any in Evangelicals or other Protestant churches. When did this practise disappear, I wonder and why ?
So I asked in the "Ask about the Ortodox Faith' group if this is still done today- I received 2 replies:

1. just like prior to communion one fasts and goes to confession, so just like at baptism, God parents prepare themselves with fasting and confession.
second person's reply
2. And for weddings. Prayer and fasting before any Sacrament!
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ohio jones
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Re: Fasting prior to Baptism

Post by ohio jones »

Valerie wrote:So I asked in the "Ask about the Ortodox Faith' group if this is still done today- I received 2 replies:

1. just like prior to communion one fasts and goes to confession, so just like at baptism, God parents prepare themselves with fasting and confession.
second person's reply
2. And for weddings. Prayer and fasting before any Sacrament!
Good thing headcovering is an ordinance and not a sacrament.
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Valerie
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Re: Fasting prior to Baptism

Post by Valerie »

ohio jones wrote:
Valerie wrote:So I asked in the "Ask about the Ortodox Faith' group if this is still done today- I received 2 replies:

1. just like prior to communion one fasts and goes to confession, so just like at baptism, God parents prepare themselves with fasting and confession.
second person's reply
2. And for weddings. Prayer and fasting before any Sacrament!
Good thing headcovering is an ordinance and not a sacrament.
Why do you say that? I find the Orthodox headcoverings to be actual veiling, even going around the neck- our first visit to an Orthodox Church had an actual kindly put sign at the entrance that women were to cover their heads, and abstain from wearing pants in service-

But yes there is a difference between an ordinance and a sacrament
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silentreader
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Re: Fasting prior to Baptism

Post by silentreader »

Valerie wrote:
ohio jones wrote:
Valerie wrote:So I asked in the "Ask about the Ortodox Faith' group if this is still done today- I received 2 replies:

1. just like prior to communion one fasts and goes to confession, so just like at baptism, God parents prepare themselves with fasting and confession.
second person's reply
2. And for weddings. Prayer and fasting before any Sacrament!
Good thing headcovering is an ordinance and not a sacrament.
Why do you say that? I find the Orthodox headcoverings to be actual veiling, even going around the neck- our first visit to an Orthodox Church had an actual kindly put sign at the entrance that women were to cover their heads, and abstain from wearing pants in service-

But yes there is a difference between an ordinance and a sacrament
So that there is no need to fast before covering.
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