Mary - an Anabaptist / Mennonite understanding

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Valerie
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Re: Mary - an Anabaptist / Mennonite understanding

Post by Valerie »

silentreader wrote:
Valerie wrote:
silentreader wrote:
That's called compromise, and I for one, am not interested.
Well, I wouldn't call it compromise, we have realized that 'we' are not infallible in our own assumptions so seek to understand more truth about what the 2000 year old Church believed and why, where these beliefs come from, etc-
Well see that's the problem, you need to call it what it is. What you consider understanding, is obviously deception when compared to Scripture.
If you call someone deceived, the kind thing to do is to clearly point out where they are deceived and why- so that they can gain respect for your own truth/understandings.
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silentreader
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Re: Mary - an Anabaptist / Mennonite understanding

Post by silentreader »

Valerie wrote:
silentreader wrote:
Valerie wrote:
Well, I wouldn't call it compromise, we have realized that 'we' are not infallible in our own assumptions so seek to understand more truth about what the 2000 year old Church believed and why, where these beliefs come from, etc-
Well see that's the problem, you need to call it what it is. What you consider understanding, is obviously deception when compared to Scripture.
If you call someone deceived, the kind thing to do is to clearly point out where they are deceived and why- so that they can gain respect for your own truth/understandings.
And how many times have we gone through that and it hasn't been accepted?
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ohio jones
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Re: Mary - an Anabaptist / Mennonite understanding

Post by ohio jones »

Valerie wrote:the impression I get is that most people here feel God just radomly selected some Jewish girl to bring His Son into the world- to take on human flesh & Divinity at the same time- is that correct?
I don't think that impression is correct; it may even be a strawwoman. God's choice of Mary was anything but random. The time in history, her location, genealogy, family, and character (at least) were precisely chosen, I believe.
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Bootstrap
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Re: Mary - an Anabaptist / Mennonite understanding

Post by Bootstrap »

silentreader wrote:
Valerie wrote:Well, I wouldn't call it compromise, we have realized that 'we' are not infallible in our own assumptions so seek to understand more truth about what the 2000 year old Church believed and why, where these beliefs come from, etc-
Well see that's the problem, you need to call it what it is. What you consider understanding, is obviously deception when compared to Scripture.
I agree. And actually, some of this goes beyond what Valerie is willing to accept too. One of the things people haven't been picking up on is this: Valerie says the Orthodox teaching on Mary is one of the reasons they have not yet joined the Orthodox Church. She also very much appreciates the Mary of the Bible. So do I.

Let me add this: The Mary of the icons is rarely the same person as the Mary of Scripture. She is not usually depicted in scenes of the Bible, or as a simple human being blessed by God. I very much appreciate the Mary of Scripture. When you put a crown on her head and call her Theotokos or Queen of Heaven, I don't think we are talking about the same thing.
Valerie wrote:If you call someone deceived, the kind thing to do is to clearly point out where they are deceived and why- so that they can gain respect for your own truth/understandings.
I think you are deceived in believing that the Orthodox Church is the same thing as the ancient faith. I believe that is found in Scripture. I believe the Orthodox Church - like all churches - has gone astray in many ways, which I would be happy to discuss in detail if you really want to go there (but prefer not to, I don't think that helps build unity). I believe that giving any human institution the authority of Scripture is fundamentally flawed.

I also doubt that you build Christian unity by telling people that one denomination is the One True Church, and that they are in error if they do not join that denomination. Especially on a Mennonite board. Especially if the denomination you pick is so different from what Mennonites believe.
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Wayne in Maine
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Re: Mary - an Anabaptist / Mennonite understanding

Post by Wayne in Maine »

I think one really has to be familiar with popular Roman Catholic piety in order to really appreciate the idolatrous nature of the cult of Mary. Many of the earliest Anabaptists were iconoclasts - they viewed the veneration of Mary and the Saints and the making of images of the same as idolatry and preached strongly against it.

I'm a first generation Anabaptist who grew up Roman Catholic. Most of my family are still Roman Catholic. I have many Roman Catholic friends. The superstitious, pantheism (the center of which is "Our Blessed Mother"), is nothing short of christened paganism.
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temporal1
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Re: Mary - an Anabaptist / Mennonite understanding

Post by temporal1 »

i was raised believing icons are idolatry, and, i continue to believe they can be.
because of these early lessons, which i did not question, icons are a problem for me.

however, i now try to keep in mind their original purpose, to help share the Word with a mostly illiterate world. for this godly purpose, i can only imagine they were of significant help. so much so, i can readily imagine how they could have become idolatry. in corners+caves, in an unkind world, they must have represented so much beauty and hope.

i honestly wonder if it's possible to imagine life without being able to read, without plentiful books and other reading.
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temporal1
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Re: Mary - an Anabaptist / Mennonite understanding

Post by temporal1 »

Wayne in Maine wrote:I think one really has to be familiar with popular Roman Catholic piety in order to really appreciate the idolatrous nature of the cult of Mary. Many of the earliest Anabaptists were iconoclasts - they viewed the veneration of Mary and the Saints and the making of images of the same as idolatry and preached strongly against it.

I'm a first generation Anabaptist who grew up Roman Catholic. Most of my family are still Roman Catholic. I have many Roman Catholic friends. The superstitious, pantheism (the center of which is "Our Blessed Mother"), is nothing short of christened paganism.
this is so familiar to me, it's part of why i wonder about my family's history with Anabaptists.
was there a history? how so? what happened? why the silence?

often, when i read Catholic reports, in comments, it's easy to find Catholics who are as bitter today as ever about Protestants, esp Martin Luther. not all go there, but it's not difficult to find. they tend to blame ALL Catholic Church ills on those awful Protestants, i believe, going back to ML, but, all of them. i presume, if asked, they think of Anabaptists as Protestants, if they think of them at all.

i don't attempt to debate.
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Valerie
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Re: Mary - an Anabaptist / Mennonite understanding

Post by Valerie »

temporal1 wrote:i was raised believing icons are idolatry, and, i continue to believe they can be.
because of these early lessons, which i did not question, icons are a problem for me.

however, i now try to keep in mind their original purpose, to help share the Word with a mostly illiterate world. for this godly purpose, i can only imagine they were of significant help. so much so, i can readily imagine how they could have become idolatry. in corners+caves, in an unkind world, they must have represented so much beauty and hope.

i honestly wonder if it's possible to imagine life without being able to read, without plentiful books and other reading.
There is one gigantic circular icon in Amish Country at Behalt- the Amish Mennonite Cultural Center- it 'tells the story' in painting form which is exactly what icons were for- there are myriads of icons of 'scenes' from the Bible and yes they were used to have the visual- we know that not only were people illiterate but there was no canonized New Testament until the 4th century and people didn't own their own Bibles until the printing press made that possible- even still there is benefit to icons that I can see- and again it is recognizing the difference between 'worship' and 'veneration' but so many of the icons are very detailed in their depiction of important teachings in Scripture- I find them fascinating in what they are conveying in art form.
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Bootstrap
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Re: Mary - an Anabaptist / Mennonite understanding

Post by Bootstrap »

Valerie wrote:we know that not only were people illiterate but there was no canonized New Testament until the 4th century and people didn't own their own Bibles until the printing press made that possible-
Sure, storytelling, mystery plays, and pictures are great. Not everyone is literate, even today.
Valerie wrote:even still there is benefit to icons that I can see- and again it is recognizing the difference between 'worship' and 'veneration' but so many of the icons are very detailed in their depiction of important teachings in Scripture- I find them fascinating in what they are conveying in art form.
Let me suggest a simple test: The way we relate to an image of a human being should be very different from the way we might pray in front of a cross or an image of Jesus or the trinity. If not, there's a real possibility that we are putting a human being in the place of God.

If you bow down before an image, light candles or burn incense in front of an image, pray to the image or to the person it represents, ask the image or the person it represents to intercede for you (instead of asking Jesus or the Holy Spirit to intercede for you), that looks a lot like idolatry to me.
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Valerie
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Re: Mary - an Anabaptist / Mennonite understanding

Post by Valerie »

Bootstrap wrote:
Valerie wrote:we know that not only were people illiterate but there was no canonized New Testament until the 4th century and people didn't own their own Bibles until the printing press made that possible-
Sure, storytelling, mystery plays, and pictures are great. Not everyone is literate, even today.
Valerie wrote:even still there is benefit to icons that I can see- and again it is recognizing the difference between 'worship' and 'veneration' but so many of the icons are very detailed in their depiction of important teachings in Scripture- I find them fascinating in what they are conveying in art form.
Let me suggest a simple test: The way we relate to an image of a human being should be very different from the way we might pray in front of a cross or an image of Jesus or the trinity. If not, there's a real possibility that we are putting a human being in the place of God.

If you bow down before an image, light candles or burn incense in front of an image, pray to the image or to the person it represents, ask the image or the person it represents to intercede for you (instead of asking Jesus or the Holy Spirit to intercede for you), that looks a lot like idolatry to me.
The way 'those' kinds of icons were explained to us is this- windows to heaven- in other words, they are passing on the affection to the person they know is alive at the throne of God- and as far as incense, I haven't seen anyone burning incense in front of the icon- BUT it was God who instituted incense and in Malachi 1 it was prophesied that the Gentiles would (these would be Gentiles that were brought into the Church) and the incense smoke is the representation of the prayers going up to God- you can read about that smoke of the incense in heaven, in Revelations- but it was an OT practice and according to Malachi, to be a NT practice as well- and intercession is what we do for each other here, we ask one another to pray to the Lord for us, and so Christians who see the departed as "alive with Christ" ask their intercessions since they know they are close to Him- it's not 'worshipping' them- it is more of the understanding of that great cloud of witnesses- that Apostle Paul says we enter in-

oh- and as far as bowing, that was a custom by many in the OT that had nothing to do with worship, it was more of a bow of respect- now we also know that the Apostle John, without realizing it, worshipped the angel in Revelations, he worshipped at his feet- I think this is a different kind of 'bow' that say, Abraham did- there are two types of bowing-
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