orthodox and baptism, split from are pc anabaptist?

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Valerie
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Re: orthodox and baptism, split from are pc anabaptist?

Post by Valerie »

ohio jones wrote:
Valerie wrote:
ohio jones wrote: I thought the Orthodox linked baptism to birth, rather than to the new birth. :?
No, to the New Birth- The New Birth is where by anointing and the grace of the Holy Spirit, the Baptized, at whatever age is receives the Holy Spirit and becomes a part of the Kingdom of God- if when young, they are holy, and raised in the fear and hurture of the Lord. Born Again-
I really don't think Nicodemus got the idea that Jesus was talking about infants being born again, nor would anyone else see this in that passage unless they were already convinced of it beforehand. In fact John 3, with its repeated use of the phrase "whoever believes" is a fairly clear statement against infant baptism.

Where in the New Testament is anything said about an infant receiving the Holy Spirit?
It is through anointing and prayer at one's baptism, that God imparts grace-
Jesus recognized the faith of a little one He took into His arms (must have been quite small!) I don't think He saw little ones as pagans- but instead used them as examples to us of faith. Martin Luther came against his own Church for certain reasons-
but one thing he maintained was infant baptism- even being a somewhat Sola Scriptura man- many denominations from that era still maintain this understanding of infant baptism- there must be some differences of understanding about it-
Other than that, I think that there were oral teachings (2 Thessalonians 2:15) and as Apostle Paul compares baptism to circumcision (done the 8th day of life) there may be a lot of what they explained- we will probably never see this the same way- but I do know, and have read there are many Anabaptist people that were baptized without really being converted- they have shared these testimonies in various places- and somone on this forum just posted that a couple of days ago, that many Mennonite girls in his church confessed they were baptized out of peer pressure- it was the same for some men in Amish I read about- the 'pressure'-
I don't know what the Anabaptist teach about the Holy Spirit, and when that work of grace & Spirit is prayed for, for one to receive-
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ken_sylvania
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Re: orthodox and baptism, split from are pc anabaptist?

Post by ken_sylvania »

Valerie wrote: I don't see that as willfully ignorant of Jesus' commands, having heard both sides of the debate, they are not 'ignorant' of what Jesus said, maybe they disagree on what He 'meant'. Two different things- He knows the hearts on this, and He will be the judge of anyone who mistakenly felt that they were called to serve and called to lay down their lives, or be willing to.
Absolutely correct. God will be the judge. Based on His Word, and the stern warnings against deception, I would not want to be the person being judged by God for mistakenly believing that it was OK to kill other people. The Bible is pretty clear that being sincerely mistaken isn't a pass for disobedience.
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Wade
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Re: orthodox and baptism, split from are pc anabaptist?

Post by Wade »

This topic reminds of why I have only ever felt comfortable in conservative Mennonite churches.
It seems every other church I have seen or been in use what isn't said in scripture as okay to do. Where mostly CM's look for what is said in Scripture.
Being a member now of a Baptist church, drift seems so obvious in ways. Just take scriptural terms and define them by societies definition's and you have a church that comparatively is only doing a bit better (if that) than the world. But rather the understanding I get from the original Anabaptist's is take scriptural terms and define them by The Word and consider your way of life compared to the Way of life.
The two are completely different outcomes of thought and practice. Whose example are we to look to?
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ohio jones
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Re: orthodox and baptism, split from are pc anabaptist?

Post by ohio jones »

Valerie wrote:It is through anointing and prayer at one's baptism, that God imparts grace-
Anabaptists view baptism as symbolic, rather than sacramental. In some ways, that's at the root of the difference.
but I do know, and have read there are many Anabaptist people that were baptized without really being converted-
I think we all agree that's wrong. It doesn't justify infants being baptized without being converted.
I don't know what the Anabaptist teach about the Holy Spirit, and when that work of grace & Spirit is prayed for, for one to receive-
If you wanted to know, you could ask. But would you be able to listen to and understand the answers without rebutting them with EO interpretations?
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ohio jones
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Re: orthodox and baptism, split from are pc anabaptist?

Post by ohio jones »

Valerie wrote:
ken_sylvania wrote:Do you really think maiming and killing people is a good way to demonstrate your love for them?
truly Jesus said love your enemies- but those who are not against joining the service sincerely believe He met 'personal' enemies, not applicable if one was in the service. He referred back to the law "An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth" (which was between 'two' people- not armies.
Then He said to love these enemies. I can see both sides. Sincerely.
This article validates Valerie's opinion on this:
Biblical scholars confirmed Thursday that Jesus’s famous command to “love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you” was never intended to include those who disagree with you politically.

Carefully studying the context and historical background of the Sermon on the Mount, a wide range of biblical experts have come to the conclusion that Christians are under no obligation to love their political foes.
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I am a Christian and my name is Pilgram; I'm on a journey, but I'm not alone -- NewSong, slightly edited
Sudsy
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Re: orthodox and baptism, split from are pc anabaptist?

Post by Sudsy »

Josh wrote:So where does this end? I know lots of people who think they can follow Jesus whilst embracing homosexual marriage, cohabiting, and all manner of immorality. In fact they even encourage such things and promote them.

Yet the scriptures are clear that those who practice darkness will not inherit the kingdom of heaven.
Jesus also said 'There is no greater love than to lay down one's life for one's friends' and I think some consider that risking their lives and sometimes losing their life is a noble cause for a friend who may be harmed by someone else. Will Jesus consider this in His judgment of obedience ? Regardless of what we chose as an Anabaptist to do, can we say for sure that the thousands of professing believers that 'fought for theirs and other's freedom' are murderers that will not inherit the Kingdom of heaven ? I know I can't interpret scripture to make that kind of statement.

Regarding continued, willful, homosexual activity, it would seem to me that this is more clear in scripture to be wrong and a sin to be delivered from. We also should look at the other sins listed in losing heaven. Exactly what is a slanderer/verbal abuser/reviler/railer as various versions say ? Might some of that be going on here at times ? At what point is anyone unqualified to inherit the kingdom of heaven ? Do we know ?

Seems to me it gets back to what Paul wrote to the Philippians - 'Work hard to show the results of your salvation, obeying God with deep reverence and fear."
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cmbl
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Re: orthodox and baptism, split from are pc anabaptist?

Post by cmbl »

Sudsy wrote: Seems to me it gets back to what Paul wrote to the Philippians - 'Work hard to show the results of your salvation, obeying God with deep reverence and fear."
That's an...interesting...translation. Or should I say paraphrase?
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Valerie
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Re: orthodox and baptism, split from are pc anabaptist?

Post by Valerie »

ohio jones wrote:
Valerie wrote:
ken_sylvania wrote:Do you really think maiming and killing people is a good way to demonstrate your love for them?
truly Jesus said love your enemies- but those who are not against joining the service sincerely believe He met 'personal' enemies, not applicable if one was in the service. He referred back to the law "An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth" (which was between 'two' people- not armies.
Then He said to love these enemies. I can see both sides. Sincerely.
This article validates Valerie's opinion on this:
Biblical scholars confirmed Thursday that Jesus’s famous command to “love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you” was never intended to include those who disagree with you politically.

Carefully studying the context and historical background of the Sermon on the Mount, a wide range of biblical experts have come to the conclusion that Christians are under no obligation to love their political foes.
Feeling misunderstood :-|
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Valerie
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Re: orthodox and baptism, split from are pc anabaptist?

Post by Valerie »

ohio jones wrote:
Valerie wrote:It is through anointing and prayer at one's baptism, that God imparts grace-
Anabaptists view baptism as symbolic, rather than sacramental. In some ways, that's at the root of the difference.
but I do know, and have read there are many Anabaptist people that were baptized without really being converted-
I think we all agree that's wrong. It doesn't justify infants being baptized without being converted.
I don't know what the Anabaptist teach about the Holy Spirit, and when that work of grace & Spirit is prayed for, for one to receive-
If you wanted to know, you could ask. But would you be able to listen to and understand the answers without rebutting them with EO interpretations?


I am not sure- I could listen to them- yes. Does that mean I would be allowed to discuss them? This being a discussion forum not a church, I felt this was a safe place for us to have discussions about these differences. If I lean one way or the other might you wonder why? Do you assume it is personal preference? I can assure you it is not-

Are you familiar with the ancient definition of 'symbol'?
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Sudsy
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Re: orthodox and baptism, split from are pc anabaptist?

Post by Sudsy »

cmbl wrote:
Sudsy wrote: Seems to me it gets back to what Paul wrote to the Philippians - 'Work hard to show the results of your salvation, obeying God with deep reverence and fear."
That's an...interesting...translation. Or should I say paraphrase?
Yes, I think I prefer this one - 'Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.' - ESV.

Point I was trying to make is to focus on our own salvation regardless of what others do as we will be judged personally and not as a group. What various groups of Christians determine to be the correct way to interpret being obedient won't matter when we stand before God, one on one. We won't be able to blame our church for being wrong or any false teachers. Co-operating with God who is working in us is what matters.
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