Why exactly is modest dress so important?

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KingdomBuilder
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Re: Why exactly is modest dress so important?

Post by KingdomBuilder »

I don't think there's one or two answers for all people. I believe there are many NT verses one can use to express why they dress modestly.

I believe modesty is important largely for remaining unstained by the world. The desire to keep up with the times and trends quickly morphs into idolatry and pride.
Not to mention, people now dress their 4 year olds in ways that only prostitutes would dress not too long ago. Tell me that's not being stained by the world.

Do these same liberal Christians think listening to rap is okay? There's no verse on it, but I have no doubt in my mind that no Christian should be listening to it.
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mike
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Re: Why exactly is modest dress so important?

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JimFoxvog wrote:You are correct that modesty, using that word, is only mentioned once or twice in scripture, and only in the context of women. But it does refer to clothing.
[bible]1Tim 2,9-10[/bible]
The error is in thinking modesty refers to keeping the body covered. It refers to not trying to look better than others with fancy expensive additions. Remember, in the days of Paul everyone used the public baths, undressed of course, and the early Christians had no problem with that. The underlying sin in immodesty is pride, which is addressed more often. The sin of pride is in no way limited to women, so the sin of immodesty, that is pride in appearance, can not be limited to women.

Motive is central. If one is dressing to show one better than others, it is wrong. The scripture on modesty quoted above is not talking about sexually attracting people, but still if one is attempting to sexually arouse someone other than one's spouse, that would seem wrong. But Jesus but the responsibility of the sin of lust squarely on the one lusting, not the one who is the object of lust. [bible]Matthew 5,28[/bible]

Here's an observation I made. I have talked to many Christian men who have been at nudist camps or beaches. This has very refreshing, helping free them from looking at women's bodies in a sexual way. The report is that everyone treats everyone respectfully, no matter their gender or body type.

http://www.rhondaschrock.com/rhondas_bl ... ur-family/
I do not believe that nudism can be associated with Christian practice, based first on the fact that God himself, as Ernie said, clothed man after the fall. Nakedness is routinely associated with shame in the scriptures, not with freedom. The scriptures also speak of the attire of the prostitute, implying that a believing woman would dress otherwise. In both testaments the practice is of God's people wearing clothing.

The person who is the object of lust bears some of the responsibility for the sin if they dress provocatively. It is possible to cause others to sin.
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Re: Why exactly is modest dress so important?

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Valerie wrote:Also Jim, you said the responsibility of lusting falls squarely on the one who is 'seeing' causing him to lust-
I don't know if that is completely true- because I consider this passage:
1 Corinthians 8:
9But take heed lest by any means this liberty of yours become a stumblingblock to them that are weak. 10For if any man see thee which hast knowledge sit at meat in the idol's temple, shall not the conscience of him which is weak be emboldened to eat those things which are offered to idols; 11And through thy knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died? 12But when ye sin so against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience, ye sin against Christ. 13Wherefore, if meat make my brother to offend, I will eat no flesh while the world standeth, lest I make my brother to offend.
This is a good passage to look at. The context is meat offered to idols. As idols are nothing, it is OK in itself to eat such meat. But if this were to tempt someone who used to worship idols in this way to do something that was idolatrous to them, it would be wrong. What would be analogous today. Some of the greatest idolatry I see is toward money and country. So dressing with expensive clothes might sort of fit. So might displaying a flag. The stumbling block is encouraging someone to imitate you when you do something that is not sinful in itself, but would be to the other. Drinking alcohol in the presense of an alcoholic or eating a rich dessert in the presence of a glutton might be closer. But Jesus puts the responsibilty of lust directly on the one who lusts.
Valerie wrote: Now if a woman (or man, women get lusty too, have lived 59 years and have witnessed it often in the culture around me- there are women who go to male strip shows too!) knowingly wears something that may cause his brother to stumble, then what does that say of our heart & motives? Why would we want to be concerned with attracting people? Who do we 'dress up' for? If a woman does the best she can, to please the Lord in this area, seeking His will, His preference, and a man still has lust in his heart, she is at least not guilty of being a stumbling block, true?
I think we agree here.
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Re: Why exactly is modest dress so important?

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mike wrote: I do not believe that nudism can be associated with Christian practice, based first on the fact that God himself, as Ernie said, clothed man after the fall. Nakedness is routinely associated with shame in the scriptures, not with freedom. The scriptures also speak of the attire of the prostitute, implying that a believing woman would dress otherwise. In both testaments the practice is of God's people wearing clothing.
Nudism as an "ism" one would have to examine the doctines. Let's consider nakedness instead.

When God cast them out of Eden, it was just Adam and Eve, man and wife. Can we conclude a man and wife should never be naked together? Maybe the harsh environment, the thorns and thistles, made clothing helpful. I also see a symbolism of sacrifice, ultimately Jesus, in the clothing of skins, implying the death of animals as a covering.

As Isaiah was commanded by God to go naked three years, and other prophets were naked at God's command, nudity in itself can not be a sin.

The early church continued the mikvah (ceremonial washing) tradition of the Jews as baptism, requiring total nakedness.
Cyril of Jerusalem wrote:2. As soon, then, as ye entered, ye put off your tunic; and this was an image of putting off the old man with his deeds 2395 . Having stripped yourselves, ye were naked; in this also imitating Christ, who was stripped naked on the Cross, and by His nakedness put off from Himself the principalities and powers, and openly triumphed over them on the tree 2396 . For since the adverse powers made their lair in your members, ye may no longer wear that old garment; I do not at all mean this visible one, but the old man, which waxeth corrupt in the lusts of deceit 2397 . May the soul which has once put him off, never again put him on, but say with the Spouse of Christ in the Song of Songs, I have put off my garment, how shall I put it on 2398 ? O wondrous thing! ye were naked in the sight of all, and were not ashamed 2399 ; for truly ye bore the likeness of the first-formed Adam, who was naked in the garden, and was not ashamed.

3. Then, when ye were stripped, ye were anointed with exorcised oil 2400 , from the very hairs of your head to your feet, and were made partakers of the good olive-tree, Jesus Christ. For ye were cut off from the wild olive-tree 2401 , and grafted into the good one, and were made to share the fatness of the true olive-tree. The exorcised oil therefore was a symbol of the participation of the fatness of Christ, being a charm to drive away every trace of hostile influence. For as the breathing of the saints, and the invocation of the Name of God, like fiercest flame, scorch and drive out evil spirits 2402 , so also this exorcised oil receives such virtue by the invocation of God and by prayer, as not only to burn and cleanse away the traces of sins, but also to chase away all the invisible powers of the evil one. - http://www.sacred-texts.com/chr/ecf/207/2070036.htm
Manual laborers worked naked in Jesus' day. This is referred to in Peter fishing naked and Jesus saying don't stop for you clothes when you flee the coming destruction.[bible]Matthew 24,18[/bible]

And as I referred to earlier, casual social nakedness was the norm at the public baths, which were not just for cleansing, but a basic social gathering. After some centuries the gnostic hatred of the body led to dedicated virgins choosing to stay dirty rather than go to the baths, but not at first. The "dirtiness equals holiness" idea developed later. Latrines also had no partitions, and often, no sex segregation.

So "nudism" is not something in the Bible, but nakedness for religious reasons, work, practical and social situations was the norm in the days of Jesus and the early church. It is not condemned.

Nakedness is sometimes related to the shame of poverty, slavery, or captivity. On nakedness and shame, here's a good examination: http://mychainsaregone.org/the-biblical ... SgDGO.dpbs By the way, this ministry (My Chains Are Gone) has helped many escape the bondage of pornagraphy.

Whether nakedness is modest or immodest depends on the situation and the motive.
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Re: Why exactly is modest dress so important?

Post by Bootstrap »

JimFoxvog wrote:Whether nakedness is modest or immodest depends on the situation and the motive.
And on the culture. Most people on this forum are probably modern Americans. And some of what you are saying probably freaks out most modern American Christians.
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Re: Why exactly is modest dress so important?

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If nakedness was normal and not a big deal, why then would it have been shameful or shocking for the prophets to be commanded by God to go naked? On the contrary, it shows that nakedness was not normal, and was indeed shameful. As to whether it was sinful to go naked, one has to compare that to other instances of God's commanding people to do things that are indeed wrong for God's people today, such as his commanding of the annihilation of ancient peoples. I do not see God's command for certain prophets at certain times to go naked as justification for the normalization of nudity for Christians today.

Cyril of Jerusalem lived three hundred years after the time of Jesus, and I do not accept his rule as having any authority or meaning for Christians today, other than possibly to show, like many others of his time, how far removed from apostolic teaching and example the "Church" had become. Many other rules and practices developed within Christendom by that time which were hardly apostolic doctrine or practice, and which have no authority on us today.

I do not consider the lewd customs of the ancient Greeks and Romans at their public baths to have any relevance to how Christians should live their lives. I find it extremely hard to believe that devout Jews and Christians went about their daily lives naked. The lack of condemnation for public nudity would be similar to the lack of condemnation for abortion, abuse of drugs, or many other vices which Christian teaching may not condemn explicitly, but which nevertheless forbids in principle.

I do agree that situation and motive matter, of course the marriage bed is undefiled, and of course the situation of men swimming together or women swimming together has differing levels of propriety as far as dress goes. But you don't seem to be talking about the appropriateness of nakedness in marriage, but of going about naked in normal public life. And that is where I remain completely unconvinced. There is nothing in Scripture that leads me to believe this should be permitted or be normative for Christians, and there is evidence in Scripture that Christians were expected to dress in a modest, unpretentious manner.
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Re: Why exactly is modest dress so important?

Post by Sudsy »

kaitlyn_453 wrote:Just something I've been wondering lately. I've been reading a few Mennonite blogs and I guess they are more on the liberal side.. :oops: Modesty is only mentioned I think once or twice in the new testament, and apparently in the greek it wasn't even about clothing. Another thing is that in the countries where they dress the most modestly they have some of the worst sexual abuse, so I don't know if the thing about not making men stumble is a good reason. I really don't know how that works but I'm not a man..
So why exactly is it so important??
Modest dress is important for Christian women because it can detract from what women are to be most noted for - good works.

[bible]1 timothy 2, 9-10[/bible]

How often this text gets all focused on the apparel side and not on what is the identifier of godliness - good works.
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Re: Why exactly is modest dress so important?

Post by Bootstrap »

So Kaitlyn, what do you think? What makes sense from what you have been reading? What do you agree with, what do you disagree with, what are you puzzled by?
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Re: Why exactly is modest dress so important?

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I just have to share this story ...

Working with Muslim refugees, we have some volunteers who do not normally dress particularly modestly, and one Lebanese woman told me this was an issue. So about a month ago, when we had a gathering at our house for refugees and volunteers, I added a note asking women to please be considerate of middle Eastern culture and dress modestly (with a few simple guidelines).

We had a break-in in our neighborhood a year ago, in broad daylight, I watched it and called 911. So if a car with tinted windows parks by the side of the street and might be observing the houses, it makes me nervous. A van with tinted windows parked in front of our house about 15 minutes before the gathering was to start. 10 minutes later it was still there and nobody had emerged, so I started walking toward it. A window rolled down a few inches, and I heard a voice calling my name and saying, "please don't come to the car - I'm trying to become modest for the potluck, but I'm not exactly modest right now". She emerged, perfectly modest, a few minutes later.

At any rate, I think there are a lot of young dedicated Christian women who really have no idea why modesty is important. And this woman is one of them - she is very dedicated to Jesus, earnestly involved in helping people, but just hasn't thought much about how men might respond to her clothing choices.
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Re: Why exactly is modest dress so important?

Post by Sudsy »

Bootstrap wrote:I just have to share this story ...

Working with Muslim refugees, we have some volunteers who do not normally dress particularly modestly, and one Lebanese woman told me this was an issue. So about a month ago, when we had a gathering at our house for refugees and volunteers, I added a note asking women to please be considerate of middle Eastern culture and dress modestly (with a few simple guidelines).

We had a break-in in our neighborhood a year ago, in broad daylight, I watched it and called 911. So if a car with tinted windows parks by the side of the street and might be observing the houses, it makes me nervous. A van with tinted windows parked in front of our house about 15 minutes before the gathering was to start. 10 minutes later it was still there and nobody had emerged, so I started walking toward it. A window rolled down a few inches, and I heard a voice calling my name and saying, "please don't come to the car - I'm trying to become modest for the potluck, but I'm not exactly modest right now". She emerged, perfectly modest, a few minutes later.

At any rate, I think there are a lot of young dedicated Christian women who really have no idea why modesty is important. And this woman is one of them - she is very dedicated to Jesus, earnestly involved in helping people, but just hasn't thought much about how men might respond to her clothing choices.
I think the same on the above underlined. I hope to ask our teaching pastor her his opinion :) on this at our next coffee time.
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