Why exactly is modest dress so important?

General Christian Theology
kaitlyn_453
Posts: 3
Joined: Wed Jul 05, 2017 8:06 pm
Affiliation: Anabaptist

Why exactly is modest dress so important?

Post by kaitlyn_453 »

Just something I've been wondering lately. I've been reading a few Mennonite blogs and I guess they are more on the liberal side.. :oops: Modesty is only mentioned I think once or twice in the new testament, and apparently in the greek it wasn't even about clothing. Another thing is that in the countries where they dress the most modestly they have some of the worst sexual abuse, so I don't know if the thing about not making men stumble is a good reason. I really don't know how that works but I'm not a man..
So why exactly is it so important??
0 x
Ernie
Posts: 5445
Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2016 2:48 pm
Location: Central PA
Affiliation: Anabaptist Umbrella
Contact:

Re: Why exactly is modest dress so important?

Post by Ernie »

It was God's idea to clothe Adam and Eve with skins after they sinned. How much the skins covered we don't know.
But since it is His idea, there must be good reasons for it. I don't believe God does things arbitrarily. I think the more a person aligns himself/herself with God and His wisdom, the more they understand God's way of thinking.

Here are some observations I've made.
1. I've talked with many Christian men who formally interacted with less clad women and find it very refreshing to interact with women in settings where the women are well clothed. They find themselves much less distracted and not tempted as much to lust after women who are well clothed. The important distinction is that these are Christian men. Men who are not under the spirit of Christ are often going to lust and be involved in sexual exploitation no matter how women are dressed.
2. Christian women who are well clothed and have good relationships with the men in their lives, understand the depth of varies levels of relationship to an extent that others do not. They enjoy a high level of respect from general society, they enjoy an even higher level of respect from their sons and other Christian men, and they enjoy an exclusivity and level of bonding with their husband that it is not known to women who offer their physical beauty to the general public.

This article explains the opposite of what I just wrote.
http://www.desiringgod.org/articles/one ... d-millions
0 x
The old woodcutter spoke again. “It is impossible to talk with you. You always draw conclusions. Life is so vast, yet you judge all of life with one page or one word. You see only a fragment. Unless you know the whole story, how can you judge?"
User avatar
JimFoxvog
Posts: 2891
Joined: Thu Nov 17, 2016 10:56 pm
Location: Northern Illinois
Affiliation: MCUSA

Re: Why exactly is modest dress so important?

Post by JimFoxvog »

You are correct that modesty, using that word, is only mentioned once or twice in scripture, and only in the context of women. But it does refer to clothing.
[bible]1Tim 2,9-10[/bible]
The error is in thinking modesty refers to keeping the body covered. It refers to not trying to look better than others with fancy expensive additions. Remember, in the days of Paul everyone used the public baths, undressed of course, and the early Christians had no problem with that. The underlying sin in immodesty is pride, which is addressed more often. The sin of pride is in no way limited to women, so the sin of immodesty, that is pride in appearance, can not be limited to women.

Motive is central. If one is dressing to show one better than others, it is wrong. The scripture on modesty quoted above is not talking about sexually attracting people, but still if one is attempting to sexually arouse someone other than one's spouse, that would seem wrong. But Jesus but the responsibility of the sin of lust squarely on the one lusting, not the one who is the object of lust. [bible]Matthew 5,28[/bible]

Here's an observation I made. I have talked to many Christian men who have been at nudist camps or beaches. This has very refreshing, helping free them from looking at women's bodies in a sexual way. The report is that everyone treats everyone respectfully, no matter their gender or body type.

http://www.rhondaschrock.com/rhondas_bl ... ur-family/
0 x
Valerie
Posts: 5309
Joined: Fri Dec 23, 2016 6:59 am
Location: Medina OH
Affiliation: non-denominational

Re: Why exactly is modest dress so important?

Post by Valerie »

JimFoxvog wrote:You are correct that modesty, using that word, is only mentioned once or twice in scripture, and only in the context of women. But it does refer to clothing.
[bible]1Tim 2,9-10[/bible]
The error is in thinking modesty refers to keeping the body covered. It refers to not trying to look better than others with fancy expensive additions. Remember, in the days of Paul everyone used the public baths, undressed of course, and the early Christians had no problem with that. The underlying sin in immodesty is pride, which is addressed more often. The sin of pride is in no way limited to women, so the sin of immodesty, that is pride in appearance, can not be limited to women.

Motive is central. If one is dressing to show one better than others, it is wrong. The scripture on modesty quoted above is not talking about sexually attracting people, but still if one is attempting to sexually arouse someone other than one's spouse, that would seem wrong. But Jesus but the responsibility of the sin of lust squarely on the one lusting, not the one who is the object of lust. [bible]Matthew 5,28[/bible]

Here's an observation I made. I have talked to many Christian men who have been at nudist camps or beaches. This has very refreshing, helping free them from looking at women's bodies in a sexual way. The report is that everyone treats everyone respectfully, no matter their gender or body type.

http://www.rhondaschrock.com/rhondas_bl ... ur-family/
1 John 2 should be considered in this discussion?

15Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. 16For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world. 17And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.


As far as nudist beaches and camps, etc- I am not sure why any Christian man would want to visit them, nor women- what would it be, a desire to return to the days before the fall? But even in heaven, the attire seems to be robes. Perhaps like any sin, after awhile, we can become hardened- and most bodies probably look better clothen than unclothed :D
0 x
Valerie
Posts: 5309
Joined: Fri Dec 23, 2016 6:59 am
Location: Medina OH
Affiliation: non-denominational

Re: Why exactly is modest dress so important?

Post by Valerie »

Also Jim, you said the responsibility of lusting falls squarely on the one who is 'seeing' causing him to lust-
I don't know if that is completely true- because I consider this passage:
1 Corinthians 8:
9But take heed lest by any means this liberty of yours become a stumblingblock to them that are weak. 10For if any man see thee which hast knowledge sit at meat in the idol's temple, shall not the conscience of him which is weak be emboldened to eat those things which are offered to idols; 11And through thy knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died? 12But when ye sin so against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience, ye sin against Christ. 13Wherefore, if meat make my brother to offend, I will eat no flesh while the world standeth, lest I make my brother to offend.

Now if a woman (or man, women get lusty too, have lived 59 years and have witnessed it often in the culture around me- there are women who go to male strip shows too!) knowingly wears something that may cause his brother to stumble, then what does that say of our heart & motives? Why would we want to be concerned with attracting people? Who do we 'dress up' for? If a woman does the best she can, to please the Lord in this area, seeking His will, His preference, and a man still has lust in his heart, she is at least not guilty of being a stumbling block, true?
0 x
MaxPC
Posts: 9044
Joined: Sat Oct 22, 2016 9:09 pm
Location: Former full time RVers
Affiliation: PlainRomanCatholic
Contact:

Re: Why exactly is modest dress so important?

Post by MaxPC »

Ernie wrote:It was God's idea to clothe Adam and Eve with skins after they sinned. How much the skins covered we don't know.
But since it is His idea, there must be good reasons for it. I don't believe God does things arbitrarily. I think the more a person aligns himself/herself with God and His wisdom, the more they understand God's way of thinking.

Here are some observations I've made.
1. I've talked with many Christian men who formally interacted with less clad women and find it very refreshing to interact with women in settings where the women are well clothed. They find themselves much less distracted and not tempted as much to lust after women who are well clothed. The important distinction is that these are Christian men. Men who are not under the spirit of Christ are often going to lust and be involved in sexual exploitation no matter how women are dressed.
2. Christian women who are well clothed and have good relationships with the men in their lives, understand the depth of varies levels of relationship to an extent that others do not. They enjoy a high level of respect from general society, they enjoy an even higher level of respect from their sons and other Christian men, and they enjoy an exclusivity and level of bonding with their husband that it is not known to women who offer their physical beauty to the general public.

This article explains the opposite of what I just wrote.
http://www.desiringgod.org/articles/one ... d-millions
:up:
Ernie's thoughts reflect our understanding as well. It's important to you as well: if you wish to be respected and taken seriously, then dress with modesty. Even secular professional dress codes recognize and advise this. The question every person should ask him or herself is this: if I'm a Christian, how can I reflect that discipleship in my clothing? Outward body language and clothing are both important. They can and do reflect the inner priorities of the individual. Even the secular world formally acknowledged this. Fashion magazines want to sell you their latest product. Those products change twice a year to keep your money flowing to them. The Biblical teaching is concerned about the best interest of your soul. Which do you think is more important? Your soul or Wall Street's coffers?
0 x
Max (Plain Catholic)
Mt 24:35
Proverbs 18:2 A fool does not delight in understanding but only in revealing his own mind.
1 Corinthians 3:19 For the wisdom of this world is folly with God
Ernie
Posts: 5445
Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2016 2:48 pm
Location: Central PA
Affiliation: Anabaptist Umbrella
Contact:

Re: Why exactly is modest dress so important?

Post by Ernie »

Mistake. Can a moderator please fix the original...

"I've talked with many Christian men who formerly interacted with less clad women."
0 x
The old woodcutter spoke again. “It is impossible to talk with you. You always draw conclusions. Life is so vast, yet you judge all of life with one page or one word. You see only a fragment. Unless you know the whole story, how can you judge?"
User avatar
Bootstrap
Posts: 14441
Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2016 9:59 am
Affiliation: Mennonite

Re: Why exactly is modest dress so important?

Post by Bootstrap »

kaitlyn_453 wrote:Modesty is only mentioned I think once or twice in the new testament, and apparently in the greek it wasn't even about clothing.

Hi Kaitlyn,

First off, I am not plain, and I am not a woman, so that colors what I write.

I do value modest clothing - not the cape dress kind, but dressing reasonably modestly. I agree with much of what you say about the New Testament. Modesty is mentioned only a few times. In the Greek, I do think it is about clothing, but not about how much of the body the clothing covers. Still, I think these verses speak to this issue. Let's take a look at those verses:
1 Peter 3:3-5 English Standard Version wrote:Do not let your adorning be external—the braiding of hair and the putting on of gold jewelry, or the clothing you wear— but let your adorning be the hidden person of the heart with the imperishable beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which in God's sight is very precious.
I suspect most people dress to make an impression on other people, and this verse warns against that. Unlike the plain Mennonites, I do not read this as an absolute prohibition against braiding hair or wearing jewelry (after all, it does not prohibit wearing clothing, the third thing the verse mentions), but I do think it says that we should not dress in a way that calls too much attention to our outer appearance. To me, that includes high end purses, spike heels, and clothing that calls too much attention to a woman's sexual desirability.

For what it's worth, I don't think men should dress to call attention to their outer appearance either. I think this is addressed to women because in most cultures, women are encouraged to do this more than men are.

Here is the other verse:
1 Timothy 2:8-10 HCSB wrote:Therefore, I want the men in every place to pray, lifting up holy hands without anger or argument. Also, the women are to dress themselves in modest clothing, with decency and good sense, not with elaborate hairstyles, gold, pearls, or expensive apparel, but with good works, as is proper for women who affirm that they worship God.
You are quite right to point out that the Greek word translated "modest" here is not about how well the clothing prevents a suntan or how many yards of material go into the clothing. In fact, in context, it's more or less a synonym for "with decency and good sense". It's not used often in the New Testament, but Plato gives us a good clue about what it means in Greek: orderly, arranged, in its place, fitting its purpose.
0 x
Is it biblical? Is it Christlike? Is it loving? Is it true? How can I find out?
User avatar
Bootstrap
Posts: 14441
Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2016 9:59 am
Affiliation: Mennonite

Re: Why exactly is modest dress so important?

Post by Bootstrap »

kaitlyn_453 wrote:Another thing is that in the countries where they dress the most modestly they have some of the worst sexual abuse, so I don't know if the thing about not making men stumble is a good reason. I really don't know how that works but I'm not a man ...
First off, I think men need to decide not to stumble and take responsibility for that themselves.

But women can make that a lot harder for me. I remember a time in college that I was talking to a woman wearing tight clothes that barely covered her, and she complained that many men paid more attention to her body than her brains. I suggested that perhaps marketing her body less vividly would help people realize there was more to her than that. She actually took it well enough, though I was probably being rude, but I realized later that we had been having an intelligent conversation up to that point and maybe she wanted me to notice her body more. She didn't realize I was working hard not to ;->

I feel like a certain level of immodest clothing is a kind of emotional manipulation, taking advantage of a weakness most of us men have. Let's try an extreme example: I'm sure that you would agree that standing up on a table and doing a striptease would be inappropriate in most settings. I would agree with you that a cape dress is not necessarily required. But for me, a jog bra and lycra running shorts feels a lot closer to the striptease than it might to you, and I think that's true for a lot of men. I run a lot, and if I find myself behind a woman dressed like that who runs about the same speed I do, I will pick up my pace to run past her so I don't get stuck behind her for a long period of time. I appreciate women who wear gym shorts and a T-shirt or other more modest apparel. I don't expect women to run in a cape dress.

Does that make sense?
0 x
Is it biblical? Is it Christlike? Is it loving? Is it true? How can I find out?
User avatar
Bootstrap
Posts: 14441
Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2016 9:59 am
Affiliation: Mennonite

Re: Why exactly is modest dress so important?

Post by Bootstrap »

Ernie wrote:Mistake. Can a moderator please fix the original...

"I've talked with many Christian men who formerly interacted with less clad women."
As opposed to:
I've talked with many Christian men who formally interacted with less clad women
Good afternoon, ma'am, I observed that you are thinly clad, in my own formal matter ...
0 x
Is it biblical? Is it Christlike? Is it loving? Is it true? How can I find out?
Post Reply