Why exactly is modest dress so important?

General Christian Theology
Sudsy
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Re: Why exactly is modest dress so important?

Post by Sudsy »

Valerie wrote: I read this teaching about how holy baptism was done & again think of the passage, to the pure, all things are pure- I read what he had to say (although I don't think he was the one who 'started' this type of baptism, was just teaching catechums)
and this man knew the Lord- and the early Church (and really present Church) understand the deepest things of baptism in preparation which are really absent in much of Protestantism & Anabaptism- I tend to believe this 'depth' of it was not an unholiness but the opposite-

Cyril of Jerusalem wrote:
2. As soon, then, as ye entered, ye put off your tunic; and this was an image of putting off the old man with his deeds 2395 . Having stripped yourselves, ye were naked; in this also imitating Christ, who was stripped naked on the Cross, and by His nakedness put off from Himself the principalities and powers, and openly triumphed over them on the tree 2396 . For since the adverse powers made their lair in your members, ye may no longer wear that old garment; I do not at all mean this visible one, but the old man, which waxeth corrupt in the lusts of deceit 2397 . May the soul which has once put him off, never again put him on, but say with the Spouse of Christ in the Song of Songs, I have put off my garment, how shall I put it on 2398 ? O wondrous thing! ye were naked in the sight of all, and were not ashamed 2399 ; for truly ye bore the likeness of the first-formed Adam, who was naked in the garden, and was not ashamed.

3. Then, when ye were stripped, ye were anointed with exorcised oil 2400 , from the very hairs of your head to your feet, and were made partakers of the good olive-tree, Jesus Christ. For ye were cut off from the wild olive-tree 2401 , and grafted into the good one, and were made to share the fatness of the true olive-tree. The exorcised oil therefore was a symbol of the participation of the fatness of Christ, being a charm to drive away every trace of hostile influence. For as the breathing of the saints, and the invocation of the Name of God, like fiercest flame, scorch and drive out evil spirits 2402 , so also this exorcised oil receives such virtue by the invocation of God and by prayer, as not only to burn and cleanse away the traces of sins, but also to chase away all the invisible powers of the evil one. - http://www.sacred-texts.com/chr/ecf/207/2070036.htm

Not sure how baptism was developed through the years, they don't baptize in the nude now of course but thinking about history, and some things Jim said- well it was true then- and wasn't seen as shameful in 'certain' contexts-
Anyway- I learned something about baptism I had only heard about before- Cyril was a holy man of God, not an apostate though- different customs for different times but not necessarily 'evil' or 'unholy' as we see it in our day- (when Jesus removed His outer garments to wash the disciples feet, I mean- there was nothing vile about that, I am not sure when following Jesus example, do the brethren remove their outer garments too?- probably if not careful- we would see that as 'shameful' today-)

Back to OP
Interesting to me how the simple immersions in Acts got so involved with such acts and meaning. I really doubt the 3,000 initially that repented were all baptised naked. And is there proof that Jesus was stark naked on the cross ? If that is true why don't pictures blur the private areas instead of showing a cloth covering ? I must be missing something here in my understanding.

I'm surprised to hear you acknowledge 'different customs for different times'. :P I like your point on do today's feet washings have the washer stripping down to their underwear to follow Jesus example. At what point is the washer being disobedient to how Jesus did this.
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RZehr
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Re: Why exactly is modest dress so important?

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I'm not convinced that what the Bible called naked is the same thing we call naked.
It may be back then that someone in their underwear would have been called naked.
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ken_sylvania
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Re: Why exactly is modest dress so important?

Post by ken_sylvania »

RZehr wrote:I'm not convinced that what the Bible called naked is the same thing we call naked.
It may be back then that someone in their underwear would have been called naked.
Or as we might say, "undressed." I would describe a person wearing boxers and a t-shirt as being undressed.

The Mosaic law gave the penalty of death for certain close relatives seeing each other's nakedness.

Notice that when Peter saw the Lord, he grabbed his fisher's coat, not his tunic. He was probably already wearing his inner garment, and grabbed his outer garment.

Also, see 2 Samuel 6, the account of David bringing the ark to Jerusalem. The account says that David was wearing a linen ephod, but his wife accused him of having "uncovered himself...as one of the vain fellows shamelessly uncovereth himself. This as well as a couple other passages would seem to suggest the idea of "naked" sometimes meaning "undressed."
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mike
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Re: Why exactly is modest dress so important?

Post by mike »

ken_sylvania wrote:
RZehr wrote:I'm not convinced that what the Bible called naked is the same thing we call naked.
It may be back then that someone in their underwear would have been called naked.
Or as we might say, "undressed." I would describe a person wearing boxers and a t-shirt as being undressed.

The Mosaic law gave the penalty of death for certain close relatives seeing each other's nakedness.

Notice that when Peter saw the Lord, he grabbed his fisher's coat, not his tunic. He was probably already wearing his inner garment, and grabbed his outer garment.

Also, see 2 Samuel 6, the account of David bringing the ark to Jerusalem. The account says that David was wearing a linen ephod, but his wife accused him of having "uncovered himself...as one of the vain fellows shamelessly uncovereth himself. This as well as a couple other passages would seem to suggest the idea of "naked" sometimes meaning "undressed."
In one of the scriptural examples Jim mentioned ("let the one who is in the field not turn back to take his cloak"), there is of course nothing to indicate that the person was working in the field naked.
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temporal1
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Re: Why exactly is modest dress so important?

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RZehr wrote:I'm not convinced that what the Bible called naked is the same thing we call naked.
It may be back then that someone in their underwear would have been called naked.
yes, and, "naked," can be meant as vulnerable, open, exposed, not referring to physical attire or condition. it can refer to condition of the spirit/mind, not dependent on state of dress.
(i don't believe these variations are modern extra-biblical constructs.)
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RZehr
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Re: Why exactly is modest dress so important?

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Ham was cursed by his father Noah because he saw Noah naked.
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Joy
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Re: Why exactly is modest dress so important?

Post by Joy »

Right after the Ten Commandments, God commanded this to His people:
And you shall not go up by steps to My altar, so that your nakedness will not be exposed on it. Exodus 20:26

And Aaron's sons were required to wear underwear of a specific length:
And thou shalt make them linen breeches to cover their nakedness; from the loins even unto the thighs they shall reach: Exodus 28:42

Then of course "looking on ... nakedness" was the phrase to describe sexual relations, used many times in Leviticus 18.
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Josh
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Re: Why exactly is modest dress so important?

Post by Josh »

Every Hebrew scholar I’ve talked to say that miqvahs absolutely were used naked. It’s not the custom of really any people to immerse themselves with their clothes on.
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JimFoxvog
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Re: Why exactly is modest dress so important?

Post by JimFoxvog »

Josh wrote:Every Hebrew scholar I’ve talked to say that miqvahs absolutely were used naked. It’s not the custom of really any people to immerse themselves with their clothes on.
This answers the question raised earlier of how the 3000 on Pentecost were baptized. Jerusalem was used to large crowds needing ritual purification. The pool of Bethesda was one such possible miqvah (spellings in English vary).
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JimFoxvog
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Re: Why exactly is modest dress so important?

Post by JimFoxvog »

RZehr wrote:I'm not convinced that what the Bible called naked is the same thing we call naked.
It may be back then that someone in their underwear would have been called naked.
Words mean different things in different times and places, even in the Bible, so that could be true at times. But in the case of Isaiah it is clear.

[bible]isaiah 20,1-4[/bible]

Isaiah was not considered naked with the loincloth, only with "buttocks uncovered."
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