A response to Valerie's concept of eschatology

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gcdonner
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A response to Valerie's concept of eschatology

Post by gcdonner »

Valerie wrote:
But even still, to me personally, I find that Jesus gave us signs and seasons and the Apostles told us what to watch for as well so WE would be watchful- but as an Orthodox priest said to me- we have been watching for 2000 years and tend not to assume this or that happening, means we are at the end- but from what I understand- even they now believe we are very close- as country by country is falling away from the Christianity they once had- and turning from, and twisting the truth.
(emphasis added by gld)

Valerie, Jesus was NOT talking to US. He was talking to 4 specific disciples in all the passages normally quoted by endtimes aficionados. Matt 24, Mk 13, Lk 17 & 21 are parallel passages and are all addressed specifically to Andrew, Peter, James and John, not to us. We are reading someone else's mail.
Mar 13:3  And as he sat upon the mount of Olives over against the temple, Peter and James and John and Andrew asked him privately, 
4  Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign when all these things shall be fulfilled? 
The you (ye) is Jesus speaking to THEM not US, not "WE" as you suppose. This is the error of most eschatologists, they rip the passages out of their own time context and try to jam them into the future, our time zone. It is no wonder there are so many different interpretations.
Remember the old adage:
A text taken out of context becomes a pretext.
This is the whole issue and until folks get this part right they will never know about the end. (Which is the end of the Old Covenant, not the end of time)
It's like trying to take Moses' words and forcing them into the 21st century.
Exo 14:13  And Moses said unto the people (US?), Fear ye not, stand still, and see the salvation of the LORD, which he will shew to you to day: for the Egyptians whom ye have seen to day, ye shall see them again no more for ever. 
Maybe you forgot to heed Paul's request too?
2Ti 4:13  The cloke that I left at Troas with Carpus, when thou comest, bring with thee, and the books, but especially the parchments. 
If he is talking to you, then you best go and get it and bring it to him...
I suggest that you heed II Tim 2:15, "...rightly handling the word of truth" (ESV)
A text taken out of context becomes a pretext.
Think about it?
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Re: A response to Valerie's concept of eschatology

Post by Hats Off »

Sometimes Jesus and the apostles were addressing a specific person or persons; more often not. We need to be able to discern what applies to us. Obviously we are not going to bring Paul's reading materials to him nor are we going to greet or receive Pheobe and Priscilla and Aquila. But we can "Greet one another with a holy kiss."
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Re: A response to Valerie's concept of eschatology

Post by Sudsy »

Hats Off wrote:Sometimes Jesus and the apostles were addressing a specific person or persons; more often not. We need to be able to discern what applies to us. Obviously we are not going to bring Paul's reading materials to him nor are we going to greet or receive Pheobe and Priscilla and Aquila. But we can "Greet one another with a holy kiss."
And raise holy hands in prayer. :P Sorry, had to bring that up as I'm a thorn in the flesh. :oops: However, are these figures of speech or is the literal act what is still required of us ? Some Anabaptists say 'yes' others say 'no'. Our church does the hearty handshake and some hugging in greetings. The key word we believe is 'holy'.

Anyway, back to the last days issue. Was the time just prior to the close of the OC the last days being referred to or not ? Or is some of those references still pointing to a future time ? If so, which ones ?
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Re: A response to Valerie's concept of eschatology

Post by Hats Off »

I tend to stay away from end times prophecies; from what I have seen every one to date who has tried to predict has been proven wrong. A long time ago I discovered that I was amillenial or non-millenialist. I like the the quote:
Jesus did not say to be preoccupied with His coming; He said to occupy till He comes.
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Re: A response to Valerie's concept of eschatology

Post by gcdonner »

Hats Off wrote:Sometimes Jesus and the apostles were addressing a specific person or persons; more often not. We need to be able to discern what applies to us. Obviously we are not going to bring Paul's reading materials to him nor are we going to greet or receive Pheobe and Priscilla and Aquila. But we can "Greet one another with a holy kiss."
There are always universal principles that apply, but the specifics when addressed to specific people must first be taken in their context. When Jesus was speaking to Peter, James, John & Andrew, when he said "you" he was referring to them, when he wanted to address someone else he said, "they". It is quite simple really, if we are willing to humble ourselves to accept what he actually said and not what we think he meant to us instead, some 2000 years later.
BTW, which of his prophetic utterances in these passages didn't come to pass, as he said, and when he said? Be specific and use scripture to support your position is all I ask, not tradition or "I think", but what saith the scripture?
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Re: A response to Valerie's concept of eschatology

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Hats Off wrote:I tend to stay away from end times prophecies; from what I have seen every one to date who has tried to predict has been proven wrong. A long time ago I discovered that I was amillenial or non-millenialist. I like the the quote:
Jesus did not say to be preoccupied with His coming; He said to occupy till He comes.
I'm not predicting anything, in fact, if you read Jesus' teachings you would come to realize that it all happened in the first century, just like he said and when he said.
Think about!
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Re: A response to Valerie's concept of eschatology

Post by gcdonner »

Sudsy wrote:
Hats Off wrote:Sometimes Jesus and the apostles were addressing a specific person or persons; more often not. We need to be able to discern what applies to us. Obviously we are not going to bring Paul's reading materials to him nor are we going to greet or receive Pheobe and Priscilla and Aquila. But we can "Greet one another with a holy kiss."
And raise holy hands in prayer. :P Sorry, had to bring that up as I'm a thorn in the flesh. :oops: However, are these figures of speech or is the literal act what is still required of us ? Some Anabaptists say 'yes' others say 'no'. Our church does the hearty handshake and some hugging in greetings. The key word we believe is 'holy'.

Anyway, back to the last days issue. Was the time just prior to the close of the OC the last days being referred to or not ? Or is some of those references still pointing to a future time ? If so, which ones ?
As I said to HatsOff, there are always universal principles to be found and applied, but the specifics must be kept in their context to make any real sense at all. Yes, we should greet with an holy kiss, this was a universal principle. Remember though that the kiss Paul refers to is not a romantic slobbering on the lips, but according to historical evidence and continuing Eastern practice, on the cheeks, with or without the lips being involved. I have experienced them all, in my journey of faith. The key word of "holy" means separated or sanctified, ie, something given entirely to God for his service, removing the romantic element from this practice. Those who find the kiss distasteful, do so because of traditional/societal bias and not biblical premise.
The quest about eschatology we need to ask ourselves is, "The last days of what?" The last days of the big sale at Walmart? The end of time (show me the scripture)? The end of the world? or The end of the Old Covenant?
Jesus put his time limit on the fulfillment of the last days and his apostles point to it being nearer in their own time than when Jesus spoke the words initially. I doubt that that would be true if they were expecting another 2000 years of earth's history. What were their expectations? Were they misled or deceived by Jesus into thinking it would happen in their lifetime? If so, can we trust anything else they claimed?

What did Peter mean when he said,
1Pe 4:7  But the end of all things is at hand: be ye therefore sober, and watch unto prayer.
Does "at hand" mean another 2000 years? Remember the OC only had been in effect for less than 1200 years at that time.
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Re: A response to Valerie's concept of eschatology

Post by Valerie »

gcdonner wrote:
Hats Off wrote:I tend to stay away from end times prophecies; from what I have seen every one to date who has tried to predict has been proven wrong. A long time ago I discovered that I was amillenial or non-millenialist. I like the the quote:
Jesus did not say to be preoccupied with His coming; He said to occupy till He comes.
I'm not predicting anything, in fact, if you read Jesus' teachings you would come to realize that it all happened in the first century, just like he said and when he said.
Think about!
Just to emphasize- these are not MY understandings these are other teachers- the Orthodox teach that what you are suggesting GC- there was a 'partial' fulfillment and a future-
They are not full preterists

I realize you are a Preterist so there will be differences of opinions on this- there is a very small fraction within Christianity that are Preterists like yourself, believing that Jesus Second Coming, already happened-
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Re: A response to Valerie's concept of eschatology

Post by gcdonner »

Valerie wrote:
gcdonner wrote:
Hats Off wrote:I tend to stay away from end times prophecies; from what I have seen every one to date who has tried to predict has been proven wrong. A long time ago I discovered that I was amillenial or non-millenialist. I like the the quote:
I'm not predicting anything, in fact, if you read Jesus' teachings you would come to realize that it all happened in the first century, just like he said and when he said.
Think about!
Just to emphasize- these are not MY understandings these are other teachers- the Orthodox teach that what you are suggesting GC- there was a 'partial' fulfillment and a future-
They are not full preterists

I realize you are a Preterist so there will be differences of opinions on this- there is a very small fraction within Christianity that are Preterists like yourself, believing that Jesus Second Coming, already happened-
I'm not speaking about that in particular here, but your statement that Jesus and the Apostles were speaking to US. They were not, especially when it comes to eschatology. As I said to another poster, there are universal principles to be applied to us and general principles that have determined doctrine down through the ages, but to make the statement that you made is misleading at best.
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Re: A response to Valerie's concept of eschatology

Post by Valerie »

gcdonner wrote:
Valerie wrote:
gcdonner wrote: I'm not predicting anything, in fact, if you read Jesus' teachings you would come to realize that it all happened in the first century, just like he said and when he said.
Think about!
Just to emphasize- these are not MY understandings these are other teachers- the Orthodox teach that what you are suggesting GC- there was a 'partial' fulfillment and a future-
They are not full preterists

I realize you are a Preterist so there will be differences of opinions on this- there is a very small fraction within Christianity that are Preterists like yourself, believing that Jesus Second Coming, already happened-
I'm not speaking about that in particular here, but your statement that Jesus and the Apostles were speaking to US. They were not, especially when it comes to eschatology. As I said to another poster, there are universal principles to be applied to us and general principles that have determined doctrine down through the ages, but to make the statement that you made is misleading at best.
It depends, to a Preterist, it would be misleading- to the Orthodox Church it would not be- I think Preterism belief is very misleading and it is considered heresy- to say that the Lord returned already-since He had not returned yet, what they had to say to 'watch for' would be speaking to us, as well as the present audience, like much of the Scriptures- would be for present and future
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