A response to Valerie's concept of eschatology

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Josh
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Re: A response to Valerie's concept of eschatology

Post by Josh »

Hats Off wrote:Sometimes Jesus and the apostles were addressing a specific person or persons; more often not. We need to be able to discern what applies to us. Obviously we are not going to bring Paul's reading materials to him nor are we going to greet or receive Pheobe and Priscilla and Aquila. But we can "Greet one another with a holy kiss."
What concerns me is that people who want to take very literally how Revelation or other prophecy need to apply to us today then then right around and say the Sermon on the amount does not apply at all - it is either symbolic, or applies to a future age, or only applied to the disiciples Jesus was preaching to.

Seems things are backwards.
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KingdomBuilder
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Re: A response to Valerie's concept of eschatology

Post by KingdomBuilder »

Josh wrote:What concerns me is that people who want to take very literally how Revelation or other prophecy need to apply to us today then then right around and say the Sermon on the amount does not apply at all - it is either symbolic, or applies to a future age, or only applied to the disiciples Jesus was preaching to.

Seems things are backwards.
Probably because deciphering and reading "the times" is much more exhilarating, less demanding, and is just downright fun for many people. Actually heeding commands put forth by Jesus, though? Yikes... that could get sticky.
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Valerie
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Re: A response to Valerie's concept of eschatology

Post by Valerie »

gcdonner wrote:
Valerie wrote:
gcdonner wrote: I'm not speaking about that in particular here, but your statement that Jesus and the Apostles were speaking to US. They were not, especially when it comes to eschatology. As I said to another poster, there are universal principles to be applied to us and general principles that have determined doctrine down through the ages, but to make the statement that you made is misleading at best.
It depends, to a Preterist, it would be misleading- to the Orthodox Church it would not be- I think Preterism belief is very misleading and it is considered heresy- to say that the Lord returned already-since He had not returned yet, what they had to say to 'watch for' would be speaking to us, as well as the present audience, like much of the Scriptures- would be for present and future
Obviously I disagree and you have not given any biblical evidence to demonstrate otherwise, only leaning on tradition and calling names.
Good thing this is not called MennoDiscuss anymore. I have made my point.
GC, we cannot go down this road here- but as far as name calling, I did not 'call names'- it's very simple- the reason you have a problem with what I said, about Jesus speaking of the end times and the Apostles speaking of the end times- is because you believe all of these passages have been fulfilled already. And that He already came back.
You believe this so much, that you offered CD's to everyone on Mennodiscuss to influence this doctrine- to the Mennonites (which you had already left whatever Mennonite church you had been a part of)- Appleman as far as I know, is the only other MDer or MNer that agrees with what you were teaching-

I agree with the Orthodox interpretations of what Jesus said, and the Apostles said- and that Jesus Second Advent has not yet happened- while some of what Jesus was predicting, did happen in AD 70 when Jerusalem fell.
No one here what's to get all this started, I don't think- but as Josh said, the Mennonites and Eastern Orthodox are similar in all this end times/millenium understanding- which was pretty commonly held until Darby & Scofield came along.
If I start quoting the Scriptures your referencing specifically this will get very long- the Orhtodox have a book on the Second Coming if you are interested- but they are like the Mennonites in that they don't speculate every current situation as 'this is it' like a lot of Christianity has this last decade- I THINK though, from what I heard, during the earliest days of Anabaptism, there was a belief the end was in sight back then? Maybe I'm remembering wrong-

Anyway forgive me if you think I was calling names, I'm not sure where you are getting that other than me saying the 'teaching of Preterism' would be considered heretical- at any rate- these are not 'my' concepts as this thread was started.
I was simply replying to YorkandAdams why I believe from Scripture, that we won't be caught 'off guard' when the Lord returns (which I know you believe He already has returned, which is why I don't want to go down that path with some kind of Scripture debate) I believe Jesus was addressing His DIsciples in Matthew 24 to answer their question- but also future generations because unless you are a Preterist you do not believe ALL the end time Scriptures were fulfilled-even the ones Jesus was speaking about at that time.

As far as this not being 'Mennodiscuss', I came because we were sincere seekers, and headed that direction to become Anabaptist- to me they are the greatest influence of Christianity (living it) that I had been exposed to- and then while on Mennodiscuss, was introduced to Orthodoxy and had a dilmea-about certain held differences between each- we just knew we had to leave Pentecost/Charismatic- and most denominations we already knew were not the way we were going. I am not sure, were you still Mennonite when you joined MD? By the time I had joined you had left- maybe because of your own end time views? Anyways- bottom line- what I believe about it are not 'my' concepts of eschatology, they are more Orthodox and apparently more Anabaptist-
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silentreader
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Re: A response to Valerie's concept of eschatology

Post by silentreader »

gcdonner wrote:
silentreader wrote: Ahhh....but there's often a sub-text.
And that is a horse of a different color...
One of the four mentioned, or yet another?
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gcdonner
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Re: A response to Valerie's concept of eschatology

Post by gcdonner »

Valerie wrote:
gcdonner wrote:
Valerie wrote:
It depends, to a Preterist, it would be misleading- to the Orthodox Church it would not be- I think Preterism belief is very misleading and it is considered heresy- to say that the Lord returned already-since He had not returned yet, what they had to say to 'watch for' would be speaking to us, as well as the present audience, like much of the Scriptures- would be for present and future
Obviously I disagree and you have not given any biblical evidence to demonstrate otherwise, only leaning on tradition and calling names.
Good thing this is not called MennoDiscuss anymore. I have made my point.
GC, we cannot go down this road here- but as far as name calling, I did not 'call names'- it's very simple- the reason you have a problem with what I said, about Jesus speaking of the end times and the Apostles speaking of the end times- is because you believe all of these passages have been fulfilled already. And that He already came back.
You believe this so much, that you offered CD's to everyone on Mennodiscuss to influence this doctrine- to the Mennonites (which you had already left whatever Mennonite church you had been a part of)- Appleman as far as I know, is the only other MDer or MNer that agrees with what you were teaching-

I agree with the Orthodox interpretations of what Jesus said, and the Apostles said- and that Jesus Second Advent has not yet happened- while some of what Jesus was predicting, did happen in AD 70 when Jerusalem fell.
No one here what's to get all this started, I don't think- but as Josh said, the Mennonites and Eastern Orthodox are similar in all this end times/millenium understanding- which was pretty commonly held until Darby & Scofield came along.
If I start quoting the Scriptures your referencing specifically this will get very long- the Orhtodox have a book on the Second Coming if you are interested- but they are like the Mennonites in that they don't speculate every current situation as 'this is it' like a lot of Christianity has this last decade- I THINK though, from what I heard, during the earliest days of Anabaptism, there was a belief the end was in sight back then? Maybe I'm remembering wrong-

Anyway forgive me if you think I was calling names, I'm not sure where you are getting that other than me saying the 'teaching of Preterism' would be considered heretical- at any rate- these are not 'my' concepts as this thread was started.
I was simply replying to YorkandAdams why I believe from Scripture, that we won't be caught 'off guard' when the Lord returns (which I know you believe He already has returned, which is why I don't want to go down that path with some kind of Scripture debate) I believe Jesus was addressing His DIsciples in Matthew 24 to answer their question- but also future generations because unless you are a Preterist you do not believe ALL the end time Scriptures were fulfilled-even the ones Jesus was speaking about at that time.

As far as this not being 'Mennodiscuss', I came because we were sincere seekers, and headed that direction to become Anabaptist- to me they are the greatest influence of Christianity (living it) that I had been exposed to- and then while on Mennodiscuss, was introduced to Orthodoxy and had a dilmea-about certain held differences between each- we just knew we had to leave Pentecost/Charismatic- and most denominations we already knew were not the way we were going. I am not sure, were you still Mennonite when you joined MD? By the time I had joined you had left- maybe because of your own end time views? Anyways- bottom line- what I believe about it are not 'my' concepts of eschatology, they are more Orthodox and apparently more Anabaptist-
I'm not Eastern Orthodox, I am a Bible Christian. I am a heretic in your eyes, but if I go to another denomination I will be a heretic for something else, even as you would be. Don't throw the H word around.
The time statements are there in God's book, if you choose to ignore them, that is for you to answer to God, but don't mislead others into thinking that Jesus and the Apostles were talking to them personally or even our generation. The prophecies were fulfilled when and how they said they would.
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gcdonner
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Re: A response to Valerie's concept of eschatology

Post by gcdonner »

silentreader wrote:
gcdonner wrote:
silentreader wrote: Ahhh....but there's often a sub-text.
And that is a horse of a different color...
One of the four mentioned, or yet another?
I am sure it could be one of the 4, choose your color... :mrgreen:
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Signtist
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Re: A response to Valerie's concept of eschatology

Post by Signtist »

Valerie wrote: Appleman as far as I know, is the only other MDer or MNer that agrees with what you were teaching-
You can put me on the same prayer list if you like...
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Re: A response to Valerie's concept of eschatology

Post by mike »

Signtist wrote:
Valerie wrote: Appleman as far as I know, is the only other MDer or MNer that agrees with what you were teaching-
You can put me on the same prayer list if you like...
ditto
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Re: A response to Valerie's concept of eschatology

Post by ohio jones »

Valerie wrote:No one here what's to get all this started, I don't think- but as Josh said, the Mennonites and Eastern Orthodox are similar in all this end times/millenium understanding-
What Josh said was this, with no mention of Mennonites:
Actually, there was a pretty consistent eschatology amongst Christians since the beginning. Holdemans, Old Order Amish, and Eastern Orthodox have the exact same eschatology, for example.
Valerie wrote:but they are like the Mennonites in that they don't speculate every current situation as 'this is it' like a lot of Christianity has this last decade-
However, there are (unfortunately) Mennonites who do get wrapped up in this. Trying to describe what "the Mennonites" think about eschatology is complicated by the fact that there are nearly as many variations as there are covering (and non-covering) styles.
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Re: A response to Valerie's concept of eschatology

Post by Bootstrap »

I don't claim to know all the answers on Revelation, but if you make me guess, I'm not miles away from George. I have always found Swete's commentary very helpful.
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