Those who do not know

General Christian Theology
KingdomBuilder
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Those who do not know

Post by KingdomBuilder »

Another topic (http://forum.mennonet.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=773) got me thinking of a question I've been meaning to ask. One that pertains to how we look at others.

My question concerns Luke 12:47
And that servant who knew his master's will but did not get ready or act according to his will, will receive a severe beating. 48 But the one who did not know, and did what deserved a beating, will receive a light beating.
Now, my first question is whether or not you interpret this verse as strictly applying to "servants" in the sense of believers? Or do you think this is about believers vs unbelievers?

Secondly, for those who believe this is referencing believers, who do you think represents those "who did not know" today?
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Sudsy
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Re: Those who do not know

Post by Sudsy »

KingdomBuilder wrote:Another topic (http://forum.mennonet.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=773) got me thinking of a question I've been meaning to ask. One that pertains to how we look at others.

My question concerns Luke 12:47
And that servant who knew his master's will but did not get ready or act according to his will, will receive a severe beating. 48 But the one who did not know, and did what deserved a beating, will receive a light beating.
Now, my first question is whether or not you interpret this verse as strictly applying to "servants" in the sense of believers? Or do you think this is about believers vs unbelievers?

Secondly, for those who believe this is referencing believers, who do you think represents those "who did not know" today?
Believers. Those 'who did not know' could be spiritual babes who haven't yet discovered God's will in various areas. Who are these today ? Imo, most of us. :oops:
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KingdomBuilder
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Re: Those who do not know

Post by KingdomBuilder »

Thanks for your reply, Sudsy.
I tend to view this as speaking of believers as well.

As for who it may be, the spiritually immature, perhaps. I also think of Christians who are within groups that preach a weaker Gospel Message.
There are many who are a part of churches that I'd never be comfortable with being a part of; nor would I ever point to these groups as the best expression of Christianity. That said, I'd also be uncomfortable to proclaim that these churches are full of people destined for hell due to the weaker groups they are a part of and the teachings (or lack thereof) imparted on them by the church.
This is where I see passages like this one as coming into play.
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Sudsy
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Re: Those who do not know

Post by Sudsy »

KingdomBuilder wrote:Thanks for your reply, Sudsy.
I tend to view this as speaking of believers as well.

As for who it may be, the spiritually immature, perhaps. I also think of Christians who are within groups that preach a weaker Gospel Message.
There are many who are a part of churches that I'd never be comfortable with being a part of; nor would I ever point to these groups as the best expression of Christianity. That said, I'd also be uncomfortable to proclaim that these churches are full of people destined for hell due to the weaker groups they are a part of and the teachings (or lack thereof) imparted on them by the church.
This is where I see passages like this one as coming into play.
Regarding the 'beatings' I wonder if this form of punishment has more to do with rewards as Christians. When we see what we could have laid up for ourselves as treasures in heaven, our beatings will be this sad realization what we have passed up. And it says in Revelation that God will wipe away the tears from our eyes. Perhaps these tears are also a sense of sadness for how disobedient we were and unloving to a God of Love. I don't think scripture supports literal physical beatings we are storing up for when Jesus gets His hands on us. That isn't the way of the Master. Just some speculating and I'm sure I will be shedding many tears.
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Hats Off
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Re: Those who do not know

Post by Hats Off »

And yet I have difficulty reconciling the idea of many tears of sorrow in a place of joy beyond compare.
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Sudsy
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Re: Those who do not know

Post by Sudsy »

Hats Off wrote:And yet I have difficulty reconciling the idea of many tears of sorrow in a place of joy beyond compare.
As another scripture says 'weeping only lasts the night but joy comes in the morning'. This scripture indicates to me that any tears will be short lived and not a forever state of sorrow - Revelation 2: 3,4 -

And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying: “Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man, and He will live with them. They will be His people, and God Himself will be with them as their God. He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and there will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the former things have passed away.”…

What a day that will be !
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Re: Those who do not know

Post by Hats Off »

I realize that rewards and punishments are mentioned in the Bible but I have a hard time with the concept that some who brought many sheaves to the throne will be blessed above the thief on the cross.

When Billy Graham came to Ottawa to preach in the sports arena, those who were instrumental in bringing him to Ottawa got front row seats. Behind them were seated all the local dignitaries. Next were those "workers" who had agreed to meet with any who responded to the altar calls. After that the people were seated in the order in which they purchased their tickets. Last were those who booked late - they ended up watching everything on large screen televisions while seated outside the building.

I have difficulty envisioning this type of situation in heaven. I cannot understand the concept of some walking around with huge crowns while others may not have anything on the head. Will there be a respect of persons in heaven?

Would not the scriptures about beatings and rewards refer more to our time here on earth?
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Sudsy
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Re: Those who do not know

Post by Sudsy »

Hats Off wrote:I realize that rewards and punishments are mentioned in the Bible but I have a hard time with the concept that some who brought many sheaves to the throne will be blessed above the thief on the cross.

When Billy Graham came to Ottawa to preach in the sports arena, those who were instrumental in bringing him to Ottawa got front row seats. Behind them were seated all the local dignitaries. Next were those "workers" who had agreed to meet with any who responded to the altar calls. After that the people were seated in the order in which they purchased their tickets. Last were those who booked late - they ended up watching everything on large screen televisions while seated outside the building.

I have difficulty envisioning this type of situation in heaven. I cannot understand the concept of some walking around with huge crowns while others may not have anything on the head. Will there be a respect of persons in heaven?

Would not the scriptures about beatings and rewards refer more to our time here on earth?
What ? There is no special place and reward in heaven for being an Anabaptist ? And what are some of us going to do if there really are trumpets and timbrels and harps and flutes and dancing ? Oh no, not dancing ! Just kidding but I think we are in for some big surprises and perhaps even these 'crowns' are not literal. Hard for me to understand the prayers of the saints are kept in bowels and other things stated in the Revelation.

When I look at the parable in Mathew 20, it would appear that God can give out rewards as He sees fit and not as we may think is fair. Those who are the 'least' in the Kingdom still get the benefits of being in the Kingdom. The thief on the cross and those believing in Christ on their death bed still get eternal life just as the apostle Paul will according to this parable.

I do think our deeds as Christians, to some degree, do result in blessings here in this world. Yet scripture seems to also say we are laying up treasures in heaven for later reward time. And although we have reason enough to obey God out of love alone, the scriptures also appear to use reward as an incentive to do good deeds.

If there are obvious reward showing in some more than others, I do not think it will cause any jealousy. Perhaps this reward is that even in heaven there will be varying degrees of experience with God. I really don't know and am just rambling my dis-jointed thoughts.

Just found this on the topic - https://www.whatchristianswanttoknow.co ... -on-earth/
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Neto
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Re: Those who do not know

Post by Neto »

Directly before the verse quoted here is the other illustration - the one about the servant the master has put in charge of the other servants. That manager, if he is found to have been abusing his position when the master returns, will be "cut to pieces and assigned a place with the unbelievers". So you all must be taking that not as the context, but as another case, or situation. Otherwise, the context indicates that he is speaking of the lost & the unlost.
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Bootstrap
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Re: Those who do not know

Post by Bootstrap »

KingdomBuilder wrote:Now, my first question is whether or not you interpret this verse as strictly applying to "servants" in the sense of believers? Or do you think this is about believers vs unbelievers?

Secondly, for those who believe this is referencing believers, who do you think represents those "who did not know" today?
Hmmm, let's look at the whole passage (and thanks to Neto for checking the context ;->)
41 Peter said, "Lord, are you telling this parable for us or for all?" 42 And the Lord said, "Who then is the faithful and wise manager, whom his master will set over his household, to give them their portion of food at the proper time? 43 Blessed is that servant whom his master will find so doing when he comes.
When Peter asks if this is for the disciples or everyone, Jesus answers this - it's for those who have been put in charge of the household. Clearly, that's for followers of Jesus.
44 Truly, I say to you, he will set him over all his possessions. 45 But if that servant says to himself, 'My master is delayed in coming,' and begins to beat the male and female servants, and to eat and drink and get drunk, 46 the master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he does not know, and will cut him in pieces and put him with the unfaithful. 47 And that servant who knew his master's will but did not get ready or act according to his will, will receive a severe beating.
We need to be aware that Jesus is coming again and we will be held accountable.
48 But the one who did not know, and did what deserved a beating, will receive a light beating. Everyone to whom much was given, of him much will be required, and from him to whom they entrusted much, they will demand the more.
But there are some who simply do not know, and sin out of ignorance. Their punishment will not be as severe. The more God has given us, the more we are held accountable for what he has given us.
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